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Haha, I get it! Same to you – I like that this is a place where we can share our thoughts without offending anyone. And I love these kinds of conversations, especially since I’m planning to study divinity, and I would like to know what I believe before I choose where I will study and really get into pastorship.
In Revelation 3:20 itself, though, it says “If anyone” hears my voice. Those two words hold a really great significance in the way I look at that verse. It would mean two things for sure:
– Since God does not say “when” but “if” he makes it clear that he knocks on hearts whether the heart will hear him or not. Even though God knows how things will turn out, since he is merciful he still shows everyone he has given them a chance. Everyone has had God knock on their door; it’s their choice to hear or not. People who don’t hear have made their own choice to drown out God’s voice with the voice of the world. “Hear” in the Bible doesn’t always mean literally hearing with the ears, it means whether you can really hear with the heart. People who keep refusing to listen to God drown out his voice with the voices of other things, and eventually those voices become so loud that it becomes impossible for them to hear God. But that’s their own choice.
– Since God says “anyone” it means that he knocks on the doors of anyone and everyone. He doesn’t skip over any person even if he knows that person will ultimately refuse him.
So that’s how I see the “eyes cannot see” and “ears cannot hear” thing as well. When people keep refusing God, and turn away to look at other things instead of God, they will eventually make themselves go blind until they can no longer see God. Same concept with the ears (which I explained earlier). I don’t believe God ever makes it so people can’t receive him – they make it so that they can’t receive him. If someone refuses God enough times, his Holy Spirit leaves them so they can no longer repent. And that’s when you have the unforgivable sin, because without repentance there is no salvation, and so no turning back. But that’s a whole ‘nother concept I also enjoy getting into.
@joy-caroline Just because He knocks on every door regardless doesn’t mean He hasn’t already determined whether or not they’ll hear. He knocked on the door of Pharoah’s heart repeatedly and harshly (He did signs and wonders so that Pharoah would know He is LORD), and He still closed Pharoah’s heart to such reception “that His glory might be known” (paraphrase). And the Bible says, point blank, that He did that. And likewise with the closing of ears, Isaiah 6:9-10 makes it clear that Israel’s rejection of Him was His will. When Jesus explains why He uses parables in Luke 8:10, He says it’s explicitly so that those whom God grants understanding to will understand and the rest will not. In Matthew 13:13-15 He actually references those verses in Isaiah, which say “Lest they should see… lest… I should heal them” (emphasis added). He overtly communicates that He does prevent some from understanding.
@libby Another question about naming. XD I have suffixes that are roughly equivalent to “Jr.” and “Sr.” Would suffixes stack? And if so, would a title-suffix go before or after an age-suffix? Would the order be a question of which the culture places more emphasis on?Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
@r-m-archer *backs away very slowly* Um…I’ll let you and Joy alone here!
Anywho, love the list! That’s a great many verses–which ones in particular stick out to you the most?
the resident romance ghost; last seen within the pages of a gothic novel
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I’ve heard these points before in regards to the Revelation verse and to Pharaoh. But I believe God makes it clear in both cases that he’s not the one who makes choices for us, it’s we who make them for ourselves. God showed Pharaoh all kinds of wonders, but he still didn’t listen because he chose not to. “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” means that Pharaoh made the decision to harden his own heart, and the Lord gave Pharaoh what he wanted. God could have changed Pharaoh’s heart anytime he wanted because he is God – he can change anyone’s heart whenever. But he didn’t and he doesn’t, because he lets us make our own choices. Some people don’t want to be saved, and if they make that clear, God gives them what they want. And he works gloriously around them to show them what they are missing, but sometimes, as in the case of Pharaoh, it just doesn’t work. And God did use Pharaoh’s hardheartedness for his glory – if Pharaoh was going to make that decision, God was going to use his might to show how wrong the decision was.
As with Isaiah, the context makes it clear that it is not God’s will his children should disobey him. These verses are talking about God’s calling Isaiah to his mission. God told the prophets (Hosea specifically comes to mind) that Israel made their own choice to reject him, so he would no longer be merciful with them. That’s the unforgivable sin I mentioned earlier, when people reject God so long that the Holy Spirit leaves them and they can no longer repent. So God is saying to Isaiah that the people can no longer repent, because they have driven his Spirit away.
I see the Matthew verses you’re referencing. Here Jesus is saying that because the people have made the choice to refuse to understand, he must speak to them using allegories, because they understand that better than if he spoke to them directly. He told the lawyer in Luke 10 to love his neighbor, but the lawyer was stubborn and refused to understand (Luke 10:29). He wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus who was his neighbor. That’s why Jesus told him the parable about the Good Samaritan, because the lawyer needed an illustration. Otherwise he would go on refusing to listen.
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Lol 😂 We promise to keep this a discussion, not an argument.
@gracie-j I tried to warn you. XD
Um… there are a lot on the list, so I’d have to go through them again. I know I referenced Romans 9 and Ephesians 2 in my overview of my beliefs of predestination, since those are the most overt passages. But there are some others. The one in… Numbers 23 also sticks in my head for some reason. Even though it doesn’t specifically say anything to the predestination thing, in saying “How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?” it lays out an implication that God does curse and does denounce (as supported throughout scripture, and the Old Testament especially). I’m sure there are a handful of others, but, like I said, I’d have to go through again and read the verses I highlighted.
@joy-caroline I’m actually going to stop the conversation here because it’s very clear what you’ve decided to believe and I’m just likely to get frustrated with your interpretation of passages at this point, lol. I don’t think there’s any indication that God didn’t mean what He said when He wrote that He hardened Pharoah’s heart. And your parable interpretation seems to be entirely backwards. He said that He spoke in parables “so that having eyes they may not see and having ears they may not hear” and that understanding was given to His disciples, to whom He explained the parables. The parables were intended to obscure the meaning, not to clarify, and they would only have the effect of clarification for those to whom God gave understanding. But, on the flip side, to those whom God did grant understanding, they would serve as beneficial illustration. Only those of the Spirit understand the things of the Spirit, which means that the Spirit must come first. And I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is something we’re inherently born with or can reject (that latter point tying in with the point of belief known in Reformed theology as “Irresistible Grace,” and the former essentially tying in with “Total Depravity.” If we’re born sinful and sin causes separation from God, we cannot be blessed with the Holy Spirit before we’ve been redeemed). So. Anyway. I wasn’t planning on laying out a bunch more points before stopping. Oops. XD
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
@joy-caroline @r-m-archer
When taking a look at that Isaiah passage, I think it might be important to note the difference between God’s will and God’s heart for his people. Certainly God longs for the Israelites to turn back to him. But he ordains that they do not, from what I can see in Scripture, for purposes of his own.
I think there’s a danger to saying that God tried to show Pharaoh something and it just didn’t work. I would be intrigued to hear why you think this, as the language used clearly states that God did the work of hardening his heart. Bu maybe I’m not considering everything : ) I’ve done some research on predestination in the past, and I think the two issues behind it are ultimately the sovereignty of God and the total depravity of man. One on the one hand, denying predestination seems (and please point out if I’m wrong) to lead down the path of downplaying God’s complete sovereignty. Now he has to try to get us to believe him. He’s not really in control, he has not really ordained all things. I’m not saying there’s no aspect of free will to salvation. There is. And I can’t fully understand it : ) God has allowed in his sovereignty mankind to make choices that we are held accountable to. However, also in his sovereignty, he has made it clear that he has chosen believers before the foundation of the world, predestined to adopt them as his own. It sounds here as if God is making the choice, not man.
On the other hand, denying predestination also throws a weight on depravity, because it leads to the issue that man is not totally depraved, that even though Scripture describes us as living in enmity toward God so that our hearts are always evil all the time and we are dead in our trespasses, there is something still alive in us, still awake that enables us to respond rightly to him. And, well, everything that I have found in Scripture so far points me in the direct opposite direction.
Something that’s really interesting to note is the verse in Ephesians.
Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourself. It is a gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast.”
Greek grammar shows that “this not of yourself” is directly modifying “through faith” – in other words, Paul’s point is that not only are we saved by God’s grace, we can’t even muster up the faith to believe in him – that faith comes from God. He opens our eyes before we can ever respond to him. Because, as a couple verses earlier Paul writes, we are dead in our sins. We are incapable of responding to God as a dead man can get up and walk. God chooses us, the Spirit regenerates us before we can ever respond to him.
I’m going to quote @gracie-j because, even as I disagree with her conclusions, I think she nailed this: “Predestination changes the way one views everything in life and in the Bible—from creation to the fall to Jesus’s death, burial, and resurrection—so don’t take it lightly.” As much as salvation doesn’t rest on the doctrine of predestination, taking it either way certainly affects significant areas of theology that cannot be neglected, so I honestly so appreciate that this is a discussion you guys are having (not an argument ; ))
Okay. Sorry guys, this was long, haha. I love theological discussions, studying Scripture is one of my passions and I get longwinded because I’m not concise (I definitely need to work on that) ; )
R.M. (or do you go by another name?), I hope you don’t mind that I haven’t gotten to your questions about names and suffixes yet. I’ll try to do that soon!
Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
lol
I guess I wrote my post at the wrong time ; ) If you’d rather not continue the discussion please don’t feel obligated to respond to my post : )
Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
@libby Ooh, that’s all very well-put. (And you’re welcome to continue. I only meant to personally step back. Although… I sometimes struggle to refrain from interjecting after I’ve told myself to step back, so I might return later. XD)
That’s all right! I won’t be tweaking the names until my next draft, anyway, so I’ll need it soon-ish but not right away. 🙂
I often go by Archer on forums (it feels more complete to me than R.M.), but it’s a pen name. My real name–Ariel–is also an option. Whichever you prefer. 🙂
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
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Totally understandable. I think we have two very different views of things, and that’s okay. I respect your opinions, and thank you for the discussion. I enjoy conversing with people who have different viewpoints than mine.
I will say, though, that God does not make decisions for anyone, and I maintain it was Pharaoh’s own choice to harden his heart and God allowed it to happen. Jesus was saying that the people refused, out of their own choice, not to listen to his parables, although he taught them through allegories so they could better understand, because they would never listen to him when he spoke without the allegories/stories.
I think it’s probably best that we stop the conservation and part it amiably, agreeing to disagree 😂 But only one more thing before I stop: God absolutely does not predestine anyone to either heaven or hell. He wants everyone to be saved, and pursues everyone with his love. He is a very merciful God. It’s Satan who predestines souls to hell, wanting others to share his fate. Jesus died for everyone, even when we were still sinners (John 3:16, Romans 5:8). Why would he die on the cross for humankind, coming down in the form of a man, if he had already decided to cause certain people to make decisions that would send them to destruction? God doesn’t cause anyone to sin.
But I think yes, I’d better stop laying out the points before I go longer. Thank you for the discussion, I really have enjoyed it even though we think differently.
It’s completely okay, you are welcome to share your views! @r-m-archer and I are simply agreeing to disagree.
God is absolutely sovereign over everything. He can force people to believe in him or not believe in him, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t because he created us to have free will. He doesn’t want robots that move at his bidding, he wants people who respond to him out of their own choice because they love him. Also, as I mentioned earlier to @r-m-archer, Satan predestines people to hell, wanting to snag in as many as he can to share his fate. God does not give anyone over to Satan and to hell, simply because he ordains it – he gives people to Satan and hell when they ask for it. Which happened with Pharaoh.
Of course faith is granted by God – when we pray and ask him for it. If we never ask him, he won’t give us that faith. I believe in a very merciful God – and a merciful God is biblical. He absolutely reigns over everything and is all-knowing, which is why he already knows who will reject and who will accept him. He does not make decisions for us – that’s the crucial part of a merciful God. He gives us free will to make our own decisions. I believe in Jesus because I chose to, not because God forced me to or made the decision for me. I asked him to give me that faith. When he kept knocking on my door and didn’t get up, I realized that he loves me too much to stop pursuing me, and I chose to unstop my ears, listen to his voice, and open the door. He didn’t open the door for me. Believing in a merciful God, who does not predestine anyone to hell, is absolutely biblical and is not at all downplaying his sovereignty. It’s also not saying that we are born with our own goodness. We are not. We are dead in sin, but when Jesus died for us while we were still sinners (Romans 5:8), he made it so we can become alive if we but ask him. It takes God’s love and mercy – his dying on the cross – to draw us to him until we finally answer, “Yes, I will follow you. It’s my choice to follow you, and I love you because you gave me that choice. Will you give me your faith and goodness?” And he always, always, always says yes. We are God’s children. He doesn’t want anyone to go to hell, and would never predestine anyone to go there. That is not merciful. My God is merciful, and that is the God the Bible shows us. Jesus pursues us and chases us with his love, always fighting to draw us to him. And it’s a victory in heaven when a sinner makes the Lord his choice. “Ask, and you will receive, seek, and you will find” (Matthew 7:7). We must ask God to forgive us and give us his salvation. Then he will give it to us.
I appreciate we are having this discussion, too. Predestination should not be taken lightly – absolutely not. Predestining people either to heaven or hell is not something we should assign to God, because it is not biblical. Satan is full of sin, and it’s sin to cause people to make decisions that will get them to hell. (Which is what Satan does.) God does not sin, he is merciful, and he died for all. He wants all to go to heaven, not hell, so he would never cause anyone to make decisions that will get them to hell, because that’s what Satan does.
God does pursue everyone, but some people simply don’t listen. Some people don’t want to be saved. Some people don’t accept God’s love. But God pursues everyone. He has all the power in the world, but he never uses it to make decisions for us or cause us to make choices. He lets us have the choice, and some people choose no. God does indeed fight for us. Some people tell him they don’t want him, and because that’s their choice, he leaves. He does not force himself in where he is not wanted. So God does try to show people his mercy, but they refuse to see it. Like with Pharaoh. Pharaoh chose to harden his heart and God allowed it to happen.
But I had better stop, because this is getting very long. I think we’ll have to agree that we have different perspectives, but I completely respect yours. I hope nothing I’ve said has offended you. Thank you for your input!
@joy-caroline *coughs* I’m going to try to keep this to a single point and word it as a question so I don’t get in trouble (either with you or with myself XD). “It’s sin to cause people to make decisions that will get them to hell.” Is it sin for an author to write a story in which characters act immorally? If an author is outside the realm of the story, outside the plane on which those behaviors are sin, are they not outside of the laws of that world? They are the origin of the law, therefore they are inherently not subject to it; they are the authority.
I also think you’re not fully comprehending Total Depravity, but that’s a second point and I said I was keeping it to one. XD
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I have to admit I smiled when I read this (no offense XD). That would be taking my points completely out of context, but I’ll give my opinion on it anyways.
My answer would definitely be no, it’s not a sin for authors to write a story with immoral-acting characters if the author is doing it to be honest about sin, showing readers the danger of it and the beauty and grace of God. I actually do believe it’s sin for authors to write books with immoral-acting characters if they do it to make the book “exciting” and in the end the characters are still demeaning God and justifying their sin. But it’s not sin to write about immorality with wisdom, lovingly showing readers how destructive sin is and how amazing God is to forgive after all that. I believe it’s not only necessary, but crucial for Christian stories to feature characters who struggle with sin, because so do human beings IRL. We live in a sinful world, and we can’t pretend it’s perfect. If I were to say that it’s sin to create immoral characters in order to show through them how destructive such actions are, I would also be saying Jesus sinned by telling parables, because his characters were often immoral as well. (Ex: the Levite and priest who passed by the wounded man in the Good Samaritan story.)
I will clarify that I believe humans are sinful and deserving of hell without God. That’s why I’m thankful he’s merciful.
@joy-caroline So how is God’s use of sin to show His beauty and grace in the true Story any more sinful?
I know that. But the fact is, like Libby pointed out, we’re dead in sin by default. Which means our default position is on a path towards Hell. We’re automatically condemned unless God directly intervenes and turns our hearts away from that. And, like I commented on Grace’s blog post about the topic, it’s impossible to believe that He chooses for one option and doesn’t choose for the other when there only are two options. If God chooses to step in and bring people to spiritual life from the spiritual dead, as He must since the dead cannot raise themselves, then He therefore also chooses to leave the rest to their Hell-bound path even if only by extension.
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
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I’d better mention that I’m studying the beliefs of the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Which I’ve grown up in, and Adventists do not believe in predestination. So I’ve always been taught it isn’t biblical, and when I started studying it for myself I agree with that.
It’s because we are not mere characters, or pawns, to God. We are his children, and he doesn’t move us around as you would chess pieces. We are dead in sin by default and condemned to hell, but Jesus changed all that when he died on the cross, and he makes intervention for us before God (Romans 8:34). He prays that all of us be saved. But again, some people just choose not to be.
@r-m-archer @joy-caroline Okay, um, I think it would probably be best if we stop this at some point…I understand where you’re both coming from. I believe that both the Calvinist and the Armenian views hold truth in them. Each side emphasizes a different viewpoint of the subject, one being God’s control and sovereignty, and the other being mankind’s free will. This is a paradox that theologians have studied for ages. I think it’s important to remember that regardless of what we think, it doesn’t actually change what God is. Maybe His will is something bigger than we could ever understand and comprehend. One day we will see. For now, we should focus on seeking and saving the lost. Of course, having friendly discussions is always fine in my book, but I do wish to stop you guys before this thing can escalate, as I have become hurt and angry over this subject matter before. 🙂
Lately, it's been on my brain
Would you mind letting me know
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