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Thanks! I’ll read them later. 😀
Oh no, not really. I’ll go check the comments out later if I have the time.
I was not expecting a full blown Valjean-Javert conflict. But Chessy (along with her father) is sort of like Valjean with the unjust hard labour and all that. To me, SeekJustice is writing this from a ‘Valjean’ perspective so the potential for dramatic conflict with Caderousse is there. Questions like whether Chessy should forgive Caderousse after her interrogation could be raised.
I am fine with the sparing of Mathias on its own even if it is has less impact compared to the original. But if Chessy like Valjean is to benefit from dogged pursuers offing themselves, it has to make sense and have an appropriate build up to it within the story.
I am also considering this from the perspective of a reader who has not read Les Mis or even watched the musical. Those familiar with Les Mis might overlook this plot hole as something to be expected from a Les Mis retelling but if they do not have knowledge about the original Javert, this resolution would be totally contrived.
Ah… Can I read your (cannot say fanfic)… authorfic too? 😛
@valtmy I have never fully read Les Mis, actually. I’ve skimmed it and read parts of it, and read the synopsis several times, so I know a lot of the story, but I would say I could probably give a pretty near perspective of a reader who hasn’t read Les Mis. 😉 What “contrived resolution” are you referring to? Because you mentioned several things you had problems with, and I’m not sure which you mean. If it’s the sparing of Matthias, that didn’t bother me at all because Jean has such a peaceful and forgiving nature, and because Matthias was young…if I remember correctly. It’s been a while since I fully read Stars. 😛
I actually didn’t even realize it was a Les Mis retelling until after I’d read it and she told me. 😛 Since I know so little about the original.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
I really like Millie! A favorite song…that…that will take some time to decide. 😉
I'm a Kapeefer 'TIL WE'RE OLD AND GREY!
www.jennaterese.com@jenwriter17 Oh, I do too! Jane Powell, (Milly,) is one of my absolute favorite female singers. Possibly my favorite, but I never can decide… 😛
My favorite song is probably “Bless Yore Beautiful Hide.” (What do you think of Howard Keel’s voice? It’s really deep and cool sounding, isn’t it? Or do you prefer tenors?) But all the songs are amazing.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
@rochellaine Oh yes, I love his voice! I really like deep voices. 🙂
I really like “Bless Yore Beautiful Hide” too. Maybe that’s my favorite 😉
I also liked Gideon, forgot to mention him.
I'm a Kapeefer 'TIL WE'RE OLD AND GREY!
www.jennaterese.comAs I have said, I am fine with the sparing of Mathias. The contrived resolution I am speaking of is the resolution to the Caderousse-Chessy conflict which is resolved with Caderousse, much like Javert, letting Chessy go and committing suicide later. In the original Les Mis, this was a fitting and sufficient resolution because of three things:
#1: Javert’s character is more established. He is a legalist and one that is tragic in his misguided pursuit of justice and his behaviour is explained by his history. He was born in prison to parents who were criminals. This makes him feel excluded from society and he has developed a hatred for his background and those of it so he strives for justice based on a personal foundation of order. Thus it makes sense that him being confronted with the flaws of the principles he upheld for so long would be enough to drive him to suicide.
#2: Valjean is a fugitive but he is one that broke parole many years ago, has been living under another identity since and was presumed dead (I think) in the original book. Thus, it makes sense that no other policeman would really bother with him after Javert’s suicide because his crimes were so long ago and they do not know what identity he is living under or how to find him. Only Javert is obsessed enough to keep looking for him so no Javert; end of Valjean’s problem. Javert even left a letter before drowning himself in the original book so there’s less room for doubt as to his suicide in the eyes of the authorities.
#3: Valjean and Javert’s history is more developed. Javert was a guard at the prison that Valjean was in for years. After Valjean broke parole, assumed another identity and became a small town mayor, Javert recognised him and reported him as an ex-convict. This almost happens again years later when Valjean is living with Cosette but Valjean manages to avoid having Javert see and recognise him. However, at the barricades, Valjean spares Javert’s life, showing mercy even though they both know full well that Javert will continue causing problems for Valjean later. So when Javert finds Valjean again when he is rescuing Marius, Javert feels compelled to show mercy in return. After that, while he is wandering the streets, Javert cannot reconcile how Valjean can be a criminal and be good at the same time and how he himself cannot act lawfully and morally at the same time. The flaws in his inner ethical system horrifies him and he commits suicide.
Contrast this with Caderousse and Chessy’s situation:
#1: Caderousse’s character is not developed enough and I could not even find hints about her in the subtext, which leaves many questions a person would ponder. Why is she choosing to uphold the law in an immoral system? Why is the violation of her principles something so bad to her that it drives her to suicide (I am not going to assume it is the same as Javert since like you said, this is not supposed to replicate Les Mis)? I understand that not all questions need to be answered in a story but Caderousse’s suicide is something very important and benefits the main characters greatly. Thus, if it is insufficiently explained, it will feel too contrived and convenient as though @seekjustice is giving Chessy and Jean too much favour.
#2: Chessy is a very, very recent fugitive that broke out of prison (not even parole) very, very recently. She is still living with her father and going around calling herself by her real name. When Caderousse confronted Chessy, she was with her subordinates (unlike Javert who was a lone wolf) and the last they saw of Caderousse was as she was leaving with Chessy. Put yourself in the other guards’ position. Your superior officer leaves with a known criminal and later her body turns up in a river. What is the most natural conclusion? Even if you find no evidence that Caderousse’s death was not a suicide, don’t you think you should be looking out for that fugitive your superior officer was escorting to bring her back to serve her sentence? Shouldn’t you investigate what happened and why your superior officer committed suicide? This is a massive, gaping plot hole that does not sit right with me at all.
#3: Caderousse and Chessy’s relationship is not developed. A major part of Chessy’s character arc is how she learns to forgive those that hurt her such as her sister Sapphire. However, this theme of forgiveness can also be explored with Caderousse by asking whether Chessy should forgive her after that torturous interrogation. The fact that this was not even brought up as far as I can recall is wasted potential. Since the mercy at the barricade is between Jean and Mathias, I cannot fathom why Caderousse would show Chessy compassion, especially since her motivations and internal character have not been explored (see #1 above). I cannot figure out how Chessy being willing to sacrifice herself for Justice would make Caderousse overlook Chessy’s status as a criminal and make Caderousse willing to go so far as to let her go completely. Does Caderousse have respect for people willing to save their friends? Does Caderousse magically know that Jean was the one that spared her subordinate Mathias so she feels that she should spare Jean’s daughter in turn? I don’t know. Javert’s case was very much justified since Valjean personally showed him mercy at the barricade but for Caderousse, all she should be seeing when she looks at Chessy is a criminal and one of the revolutionaries that have just killed many of her fellow soldiers. So what if Chessy wants to save another criminal and revolutionary (Justice) so badly? Criminals might have gang loyalty after all. Why does this inspire Caderousse to see Chessy as someone that should be set free? What has Chessy ever done to convince Caderousse of goodness beyond the legal system? That is the problem that I have.
@valtmy Sorry, I went to sleep early last night, so I’m replying now. 🙂
Ah, haha. Now that I put you through all the trouble of explaining I suddenly remembered that SeekJustice put a big backstory scene in with Maria in the second draft. 😛 I think she’s already thought through all those issues and will fix them as she finishes the second draft.
So you can just ask her if you can read the second draft, and you might enjoy that more. 😉
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
@jenwriter17 Oh, I love Gideon too!! He’s adorable. So cute, especially when he…uh…every scene… 😛 But I love it when he dances with Milly in the “Goin’ Courtin'” scene. And when he says “nice night for coon huntin'” as a “sweet thing.” 😛 (that was him, right? It’s been a while.)
That actor is one of my favorite actors as well. Funny that three of my favorite actors/singers got the three most important parts in this film, right? But nice.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
OK it’s good that that’s going to be fixed in the next draft. 😀
I read your fanfics! They are really sweet and cute! 😊
@rochellaine yeah that was Gideon that said that. 😀 that was funny!
I'm a Kapeefer 'TIL WE'RE OLD AND GREY!
www.jennaterese.comSorry for the late reply, I was out all day yesterday and have only just got back from church now.
Basically, I fixed most of the things you pointed out Valtmy, in the second draft and I fixed it quite simply. Unfortunately though, I don’t know what to do with character of Mathias. :/
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I’d identified it a while ago. There was definitely a lot of missed potential with Caderousse which I’ve hopefully made better.
By the way, Rochellaine, are you ready for Part 3? I finished it yesterday!
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
@seekjustice Oh, wow!! Please send it over! I don’t know how much I’ll read tonight, since I’ve got to get up around 5:30 tomorrow, but I might read it tomorrow in the car or something. (My dad’s speaking at a church a few hours away, so we’ve got to leave by 6:30.)
I listened to a new soundtrack today… 😉
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
Cool! I’ll see if I can get it to post now!
Ooh what soundtrack?
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Hey. Great to know that they are going to be fixed! I’m really looking forward to reading your second draft now! 😊
For Mathias, I guess you can start by thinking up of a believable motivation for him much like Caderousse. Why is he serving in an immoral legal system? Why did he let Chessy and Rain go instead of reporting them to Caderousse when they hid in the boats? (This was another thing that kept bothering me all the way till the end of the book. As you can tell, I am very suspicious about anything that greatly benefits the main characters unless they are explained or foreshadowed properly). Sorry I can’t give more concrete suggestions because I have no idea how your story is now after your edits.
By the way, do let me know if I can read your
fanfic authorfic! 😛That’s good! I hope things make more sense in the second draft.
Well…that wasn’t Mathias who let them go. That was one of the wharf men.
Observe (that word makes me feel smart, you see):
Instead I met the eyes of a bearded man who looked even more startled than I did. His mouth was open, and he was staring down at Rain and I incredulously. His lips started to move, in the beginnings of a word, and then he clamped it shut again. He glanced over his shoulder, and by raising my head just slightly, I saw what he was looking at –Maria Caderousse and her assistant.
Thus you see it was not Mathias who found them. Rather, he was with Caderousse.
Oh yes, of course you can!
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
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