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What are the chances Hollywood writers would actually do so?
OK, I’ve read the synopsis for Carousel/Liliom and can sort of see why you and @rochellaine have issues with it.
Pretty much nil.
Its certainly an…interesting story. Many of the problems are fixed in Carousel, but its still a musical that makes me a tad uncomfortable. Okay, a little more than a tad.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
@valtmy 😛
Your definition of a “horrible story” consists of unlikeable characters and depressing storylines?
Uh…pretty much? 😉
Okay, so yeah, Liliom/Carousel has a pretty depressing storyline, and the characters are horrible in Liliom. The guy who plays Billy(Liliom) in Carousel, Gordon MacRae, is acting at his finest in the role and gives an amazing interpretation of the character, making him much more understandable.
Even SeekJustice said the Soliloquy is good. 😉 That’s where he first realizes he needs to act better, and he lets you see inside his mind.
@seekjustice *bows* Thanks! And in return I will refrain from commenting on Les Mis, ATOTC, and Phantom. 😛"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
@seekjustice @valtmy If they would just take out that one line (It’s seriously only one line!) about abuse in Carousel, it would be perfectly fine, though still somewhat depressing.
Do you agree, SeekJustice? Other than that it seems to end well, with Billy telling Julie he loves her, and the daughter finding a friend.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
I know what your beef is with Phantom but what is your problem with Les Mis and ATOTC? (I assume you are talking about the musicals and not the original books since you wouldn’t be reading @seekjustice’s books otherwise)
Are there any musicals we actually agree on???
I already knew how it ended before I watched it and of course I’d read Liliom, so I might have been projecting too much onto it, but I found it difficult to care at all about Julie or Billy. Why was Billy so deadset against getting a job? And why on earth did Julie just put up with him?
It also seems pretty stingy of Billy that he can’t appreciate Julie until he’s dead.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
@valtmy I didn’t like the fact that one of them contained curse words. I think that was Les Mis. Other than that there are two reasons.
One: I like musicals where the songs help the plot along, not where the songs are the plot. Those musicals are too much like opera, where they sing the dialogue. That’s probably because I like songs you can sing out of context and have them still make sense, like “You’ll Never Walk Alone” from Carousel or “Wonderful, Wonderful Day” from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.
Two: I think musicals should be happy and fun, not dark and depressing. I like sad songs, but I like sad songs in the middle of the musical and let the musical be resolved in the end. Or even in Carousel, the majority of the songs are happy and sweet. The end of Carousel may be semi-sad, but it is bright, the skies are blue, and people are singing with smiles on their faces. Every picture and scene I see from Les Mis, Phantom, or ATOTC is dark, the people are rarely smiling, and if they are it’s a grim, desperate smile, and I wonder, what’s the fun in that? Maybe they’re not supposed to be fun, and if so, that’s fine. I prefer light and airy. (I have enjoyed several musicals that had very dark parts in them, but they were bright for the most part and had happy and hopeful endings where not everyone died.)
Actually, the original books have nothing to do with whether I like SeekJustice’s books or not. 😛 I’ve skimmed Les Mis (the book) but didn’t know Stars was a retelling until I was told so. I watched a movie based on ATOTC, but have never done more than look at the cover of the original book. I’ve heard the name of The Scarlet Pimpernel but always thought the name sounded weird and avoided it.
@seekjustice Uh…sorry about that. But Valtmy did ask. You now have my full permission to go on a rant against Carousel and The Sound of Music. 😛"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
@seekjustice There have to be! Back when we started talking about musicals I don’t remember disagreeing all the time. I’m going to have a look back at some old Writers’ Corners and see what I can dig up. 😉
I feel funny arguing for this side, since usually I want heroes and heroines I can look up to and am very adamant about that. But I will argue for the intent of the writers in this case. 😉 I think they weren’t trying to have perfect characters, but rather, characters that were relatable to a different audience than the “perfect family” audience.
In defense of Billy, yeah, he didn’t get a job, he was lazy. There are a lot of men like that, and no, that doesn’t make it right. However, he does have a character arc. He doesn’t always stay in the same rut you find him in. When he finds out he’s going to have a baby, he realizes he can’t behave the way he’s been behaving, and has to make plans for the future. He has no experience doing right, so how can we expect his plans to turn out right? About him not loving Julie, I think he loved her right from the start. I liken their relationship to Golde and Tevye’s from Fiddler on the Roof. They loved each other, but were too shy and awkward to say so. The song “If I Loved You” seems to imply that he was considering loving her, at least.
In defense of Julie, a lot of women will go through anything as long as they can stay with their man. She loved her husband. Maybe she shouldn’t have married him in the first place, but she was a young girl. You have to wonder about both her and Billy’s backgrounds. Were they raised right? Did they leave home as adults, were they kicked out as children, were they orphans? That would explain a lot of what their actions and choices were.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
I actually think you’d really like the Scarlet Pimpernel. It’s much lighter than Les Mis or ATOTC, no one dies, its got a sweet romance and the characters are already married so there’s no sappy proposal 😛
After that explanation I am left wondering why you like my writing at all. 😀
Well…I could…but we’d be here all day.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Oh dear. Did I just trigger a rant war? 😛
But why do you think musicals should be happy and fun? I mean, I don’t think you have the same expectations for books, films etc.? Just because there’s singing and dancing doesn’t mean it shouldn’t go for dark and depressing.
For me, I don’t really like dark and depressing stuff across all mediums (primarily for modern works because it feels like the creators are just trying to be “edgy”). I generally prefer works that are humourous even when they delve into dark themes sometimes.
I guess maybe my problem with it is that I don’t believe God gives second chances (which I’m sure you believe too, so I’m not trying to insinuate that you don’t)
God makes it very clear that death is it. You have to live with your choices for eternity after that. I think Carousel could have been very interesting if he hadn’t died (but at least he didn’t commit suicide…) and had actually been able to get his life back on track and worked things out. But then it probably wouldn’t have been “light and airy”.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
@valtmy I agree with you, though the thing I tend to go for is realism, rather than darkness or “edginess”. For me, the thing I love about Les Mis is that it shows the plight of people who still live today, both in my society and societies all over the world.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
@seekjustice Oh yes, I see where you’re coming from. Hm, I was about to argue that you seem to believe the fantasy world doesn’t have to match up with the Bible, since you like fictional magic, but if I use that argument I’ll have to be on the side that says Carousel is bad. So…now I have something to think about.
Carousel could have been interesting if he hadn’t died
Um…you mean if the whole premise of the musical were thrown out? 😛
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
Fictional magic is a whole other debate 😛 Though I will say that I grew up reading almost exclusively two types of stories: fantasy novels and missionary stories. As a child I never even thought about the magic in fantasy novels as witchcraft because I knew what real witchcraft was. Having said that, I have given up reading several fantasies because I didn’t like the magic.
Yep 😛
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Noooo please don’t misunderstand. I wasn’t accusing you of trying to be “edgy” with SFI! 😛
I generally only like two kinds of stories: Stories about ordinary people doing extraordinary things and stories about extraordinary people doing ordinary things. But there are several things I look out for in stories that usually determine whether I like the story or not.
(FYI This list did not originally come from me. I read it from somewhere before and found that I agree with it a lot)
#1: Something to hope for (which is usually very much lacking in the cynical, “edgy” works)
#2: Something to steer by (what is stopping the hero from taking the easiest way out or becoming like the villain?)
#3: Something to deal with (a worthy conflict)
#4: Something to execute (heroes should actively be trying to solve their problems, not simply having heaps of angst thrown at them)
#5: Someone to work with (no loner heroes because they are for some reason the only ones in the story special enough to be blessed with the awesome ability to overcome whatever the story problem is)
#6: Something to mix them (what draws the characters to come and interact naturally together, what ties the plot, theme and characters together?)
#7: Something to keep things grounded (even a high fantasy story needs some realism to be interesting)I think SFI hits most if not all of these points pretty well 😀
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