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(Ok, maybe that topic title was too long, but whatever XD)
*ahem* Anyway…
Hey everyone!! I was just thinking about this topic recently and thought it’d be interesting to discuss. I know some of us have talked about stuff like this in the past, but here’s just one central topic to discuss every aspect of it!
I don’t have specific questions I guess, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on preachiness, allegories, analogies, and different ways to present your theme to readers.
Are there certain books that you thought did really well in the theme department? Or did really badly? What are ways you’ve been trying to incorporate your theme into your story? Are there ways you’ve struggled in this? How have you overcome those struggles? Is there anything specific you’ve learned about the best way to write your theme into a story without being preachy? Is preachiness okay, should it be totally avoided, or is there a balance that writers should keep? What analogies have you used or seen used that you really like?
Ok, I guess I did have specific questions. You don’t have to answer all of them or even answer one. They’re just there to direct the conversation.
Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
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@freed_and_redeemed @acancello @thearcaneaxiom @lightoverdarkness6 @janellebelovedpig @whalekeeper @loopylin @rae @savannah_grace2009 @hybridlore @highscribeofaetherium @trailblazer @smiley @grcr @lydibug @vinagirl @livingwoodchronicles @beth-torres @evelyn-collins @keilah-h(I tried to tag everyone, but I know I probably missed a ton of people that I meant to tag. So anyone is welcome of course!!)
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
@godlyfantasy12 @walkbyfaith @artistodysseyfan @everyoneeee
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
Ooh, pick me, pick me! *raises hand*
I’m stuck sick in my bedroom today, and any form of conversation is welcomed 😛
I despise preachiness. Sometimes it’s okay in a show, where episodic storytelling demands clarity. Or if it’s self-aware. But overall, it’s obnoxious and nobody likes it! If you like preaching, study to be a preacher XD Plus it goes against the whole purpose of storytelling. You teach by example, not by just telling a child something is wrong and skipping the how and why.
For me, I just avoid direct allegory entirely and depend on my natural beliefs to seep through.
Personally the only directly Christian allegory that has worked (and by worked, I mean gone beyond just emotional manipulation), is Chronicles of Narnia. Beautiful, beautiful books. I was a Featherhead for years, so I’m sorry for saying this – but Wingfeather Saga has never compared, nor have most allegorical fantasies. George MacDonald is up for grabs, though.
The point is, a story is something a reader observes and draws conclusions from. Anything injected with too much intent forces the reader out of the story, where they start comparing worldviews and labeling the book. It’s better for them to experience the story for itself, because any beliefs the author has are going to weave through, no matter what. LotR does this marvelously. There is good, evil, and a moral standard that drives every characters’ hope for the future. Did you know some people don’t believe in those things?? If those people were fans of LotR, it could eventually influence how they see the world.
Theme… um… I believe every story tells you something about the writer. That doesn’t always mean the theme is written well. To write it well, an author should just write a story they believe in, and with skill. If they do that, the theme writes itself.
Yep, I think that’s my stance.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
Hmm this is a great convo topic.
I think the stories that have impacted me the most are the ones where I get to see the characters struggling with matters of faith and learning how to deal with tough questions, because I learn alongside the character rather than being preached at by the character. I, for one, love a good Christian story that leaves me inspired to pursue Jesus and challenged to go deeper in my faith.
My favorite series is the Dragons in Our Midst series, by Bryan Davis. I love how he weaves spiritual themes and messages into his stories, but I didn’t feel like it was preachy. There was a lot of action and thrill involved in the stories, too, and I felt like I was learning alongside the characters and watching as the Biblical truths changed and impacted the way they interacted with each other and the world around them. The books are focused on a Christian audience, however, so I’m not sure what the perspective would be from a non-Christian reading the books because they are clearly talking about God and good vs. evil and other topics from a Biblical worldview.
I think I’ve said this before, but it’s worth saying it again, that I think when it comes to your own writing, take into consideration who your audience is/will be. Do you want the book to reach non-Christians? Then you’ll probably need to take a different approach than if you were writing a book focused on the Christian community and inspiring faith in other believers. Many non-Christians (and Christians too for that matter) have been hurt by the church or have had Jesus misrepresented to them, and if you’re focusing on that target audience, you’ll have to be more sensitive about how you approach talking about God in your book. And if your book is in the hands of someone who has never heard about Jesus before, then that’s a whole different ballpark, too.
I think it really comes down to asking yourself what type of audience you’re intending the book for, and then also asking God for wisdom in how to write it. Only He knows the hearts of those who will read the book and what words/themes will touch them.
I could probably wander in circles on this topic for a long time so I’m gonna leave it at this for now lol.
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
I despise preachiness. Sometimes it’s okay in a show, where episodic storytelling demands clarity. Or if it’s self-aware. But overall, it’s obnoxious and nobody likes it! If you like preaching, study to be a preacher XD Plus it goes against the whole purpose of storytelling. You teach by example, not by just telling a child something is wrong and skipping the how and why.
(I love the way you started that paragraph. XD Idk know why, I guess I just find it humorous, lol.)
I agree 100%. I’ve actually been reading a book by Lynn Austin called Wonderland Creek that could have easily been preachy, but because of the way the author designed the characters and set up the plot, it still mentions God and important concepts relating to Him without being preachy. It’s awesome.
For me, I just avoid direct allegory entirely and depend on my natural beliefs to seep through.
Yeah, everyone is definitely not called to write allegories. Honestly, I’m not sure how well that would sell in today’s market, no matter which way you publish, just because it’s so hard to match up to or exceed the allegories everyone’s familiar with. I tried to do an allegory for the first book I actually finished… it was pretty bad. Not to mention PrEAchY. 🫣
Personally the only directly Christian allegory that has worked (and by worked, I mean gone beyond just emotional manipulation), is Chronicles of Narnia. Beautiful, beautiful books. I was a Featherhead for years, so I’m sorry for saying this – but Wingfeather Saga has never compared, nor have most allegorical fantasies. George MacDonald is up for grabs, though.
Yes, Chronicles of Narnia is so beautiful. I seriously need to read them again. It’s been a while.
…
…
BUT THE WINGFEATHER SAGA WAS SO GOOOODDD!!!
*ahem*
I understand what you’re saying though and I don’t disagree. I think I enjoyed the fact that it was subtle but powerful. But you’re right, nothing will ever compare to the og—Chronicles of Narnia. 😉
The point is, a story is something a reader observes and draws conclusions from. Anything injected with too much intent forces the reader out of the story, where they start comparing worldviews and labeling the book. It’s better for them to experience the story for itself, because any beliefs the author has are going to weave through, no matter what. LotR does this marvelously. There is good, evil, and a moral standard that drives every characters’ hope for the future. Did you know some people don’t believe in those things?? If those people were fans of LotR, it could eventually influence how they see the world.
That’s so true!!
It’s like what some secular authors, screenwriters, and movie producers try to do—make a movie for the sake of pushing an agenda. (While some may not start with that intent, it sure looks like it in the end 😬) We as Christian authors are supposed to present the truth and let our readers do with it as they wish, not shove it down their throats. That’s when I would personally begin to wonder if the author was writing the story of the purpose of giving their opinion.
Actually… now that I think about it… It could be argued the other way as well. That Christian authors do the same thing, just more subtly (hopefully). Oooh, now I’m going to be thinking about this for a while. XD How are we any different from secular authors pushing their agendas? Because I’m sure they can do it without be preachy, just as most of us aim to do. Man… this is really interesting. I’ve noticed that I say a lot, or at least believe, that we Christian writers trying to present truth are different from secular authors trying to present their own form of truth or their own opinions.
What do you think about this?
And @everyone, thoughts? 👆
Theme… um… I believe every story tells you something about the writer. That doesn’t always mean the theme is written well. To write it well, an author should just write a story they believe in, and with skill. If they do that, the theme writes itself.
Wow, that’s a really good point. I’ve been struggling lately with writing my theme into my story and I’m wondering if I”m trying too hard. To be honest, I have a feeling that this trilogy is something that I get to practice my writing skills on and one day in the far, far future publish. Because I have a couple of other book ideas that I really feel called to write and I know already that they’re going to be easier to write than the one I’m working on now. But I don’t know. We’ll see where God leads. 😊
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
I think the stories that have impacted me the most are the ones where I get to see the characters struggling with matters of faith and learning how to deal with tough questions, because I learn alongside the character rather than being preached at by the character. I, for one, love a good Christian story that leaves me inspired to pursue Jesus and challenged to go deeper in my faith.
Yes, I definitely agree with this. I wouldn’t say I’ve read a lot of Christian fiction, but I’ve read a lot of fiction by Christians. I know some people shy away from stories labeled as Christian fiction because they tend to be preachy, but if it’s written well, like you described above, then God can really use it in the lives of readers. (Not to say that He can’t use badly written fiction as well, but I think you know what I was getting at. 😉 )
My favorite series is the Dragons in Our Midst series, by Bryan Davis. I love how he weaves spiritual themes and messages into his stories, but I didn’t feel like it was preachy. There was a lot of action and thrill involved in the stories, too, and I felt like I was learning alongside the characters and watching as the Biblical truths changed and impacted the way they interacted with each other and the world around them. The books are focused on a Christian audience, however, so I’m not sure what the perspective would be from a non-Christian reading the books because they are clearly talking about God and good vs. evil and other topics from a Biblical worldview.
I had no idea that was written by a Christian! I had heard of the series, but had never looked into it. I’m going to have to add it to my tbr list now. XD
That’s really awesome, I love when authors do that!
I think I’ve said this before, but it’s worth saying it again, that I think when it comes to your own writing, take into consideration who your audience is/will be. Do you want the book to reach non-Christians? Then you’ll probably need to take a different approach than if you were writing a book focused on the Christian community and inspiring faith in other believers. Many non-Christians (and Christians too for that matter) have been hurt by the church or have had Jesus misrepresented to them, and if you’re focusing on that target audience, you’ll have to be more sensitive about how you approach talking about God in your book. And if your book is in the hands of someone who has never heard about Jesus before, then that’s a whole different ballpark, too.
I need to store this in my brain forever and ever!!!
This is definitely going to be something I’ll think about in the days to come because I had always had the premonition that I would write books from a Christian prospective and expect both Christians and non-Christians alike to pick it up and hopefully enjoy it while being shown a truth. I’ve never really thought about who I really want to read my writing… Thanks for bring that up!
I think it really comes down to asking yourself what type of audience you’re intending the book for, and then also asking God for wisdom in how to write it. Only He knows the hearts of those who will read the book and what words/themes will touch them.
Yep, totally. In the end, it boils down to God’s will and how He wants to use your story. <3
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
Interesting topic!!
I don’t have much to say at all since I haven’t read many allegories and such. I actually agree with everything Trailblazer said, though, and I’m really interested in hearing other opinions…
Sorry I don’t have much to say… 🙂🙂
“What be a cretin?”
“Of course you wouldn’t know. It’s a… bread you put in salad.”Actually… now that I think about it… It could be argued the other way as well. That Christian authors do the same thing, just more subtly (hopefully). Oooh, now I’m going to be thinking about this for a while. XD How are we any different from secular authors pushing their agendas? Because I’m sure they can do it without be preachy, just as most of us aim to do. Man… this is really interesting. I’ve noticed that I say a lot, or at least believe, that we Christian writers trying to present truth are different from secular authors trying to present their own form of truth or their own opinions.
What do you think about this?
And @everyone, thoughts? 👆
I’m not really sure how to answer this question, because it’s something I’m still figuring out, too. In one sense, I think it’s important that we as Christians present the truth in order to combat the lies, so I don’t think we should shy away from speaking about our beliefs for fear of “pushing an agenda”. I think the important thing is in how we present the truth- if it’s not presented in love and with the intention of leading people to freedom, but only done in a way that benefits us and our ego, then there’s a problem. If we stop speaking truth because we’re afraid people will be offended by it, then the lies are only going to be rooted deeper. Let’s face it- someone out there somewhere will probably take offense at something you say because they don’t understand it.
My pastor was talking about this just this morning, ironically- about speaking truth and the power of our words. Lies have a way of creating confusion and distorting the truth. Our role as Christians is not to bring condemnation on those who are believing lies and confused, but to call them back to the truth.
One hot-button issue in the church right now is transgenderism. There are the churches who affirm and even promote transgenderism and homosexual lifestyles, and then there are the churches who have flipped to the opposite side and are aggressive in their stance against it, condemning and spitting on anyone living those lifestyles. I don’t think either of those approaches are good approaches. I think there is genuine confusion and lies people are believing about who they are, and our role is to lovingly show them the truth about who God created them to be. I think God has given us a wonderful opportunity to partner with Him in restoring His identity to a generation that has lost it, and that won’t come from a place of condemnation or condoning, but a place of loving conviction.
So anyway, I guess that was sort of a roundabout answer to your question as I was processing aloud. Hopefully that makes sense. I don’t think we should allow ourselves to be silenced because of fear of what others will think of us, but I think speaking the truth needs to come from a place of desiring to lead others to freedom and not from a place of validating our own opinions.
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
Anyway, now that the heavy stuff is out of the way….
I had no idea that was written by a Christian! I had heard of the series, but had never looked into it. I’m going to have to add it to my tbr list now. XD
Yeah, I’m continually blown away by how well-written the books are, and the depth of imagination it took for Bryan Davis to write them! It falls under the fantasy genre, which I’m not usually a huge fan of, but the characters are so relatable and it’s just so rich with truth. I literally have so many good quotes, and I first read them when I was in middle school, so it was very formative for me in my faith. I feel like I learn something new about God every time I reread them! Oh, and the humor? It’s not a boring series, believe me!
“When you recognize an enemy’s weapons, they are easier to resist.” (Circles of Seven)
“I intended for it to be cryptic. How could wisdom be tested if every step was given in advance?” (Enoch’s Ghost)
“But I do know this, your talent comes from God. However you choose to use your writing, make sure every word honors your Maker.” (Eye of the Oracle)
Oooh, and speaking of speaking the truth, here’s a good one I forgot about:
“When you are called from the place of resurrection, you will rise without perceptible fire, but those who love you will know that you still burn. They will enjoy its warmth and rally with its unquenchable passion. Those who despise truth, however, will flee from your fire. You will be a flaming sword that cuts deeply to the heart, exposing the lies they tell themselves. They will not understand that you strike with love, for your words will feel like flaming arrows.” (The Bones of Makaidos)
Lol can you tell I like this series?
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
Actually… now that I think about it… It could be argued the other way as well. That Christian authors do the same thing, just more subtly (hopefully). Oooh, now I’m going to be thinking about this for a while. XD How are we any different from secular authors pushing their agendas? Because I’m sure they can do it without be preachy, just as most of us aim to do. Man… this is really interesting. I’ve noticed that I say a lot, or at least believe, that we Christian writers trying to present truth are different from secular authors trying to present their own form of truth or their own opinions.
I have to say that I respectfully disagree with this statement.
I agree with @trailblazer very much in what she said about the above statement, but let me add a few other things…
if we write our books strictly on God’s words and not what we believe about His Word, then the opinions aren’t our own truth, and ‘Our’ opinions aren’t ours…they’re God’s.
We shouldn’t shy away from truth even if we’re afraid of someone saying our writing is “preachy”.
I agree that we shouldn’t shove it down everyone’s throats, but if we’re so afraid of talking about the Gospel too much in our writing bc someone may not like it, then I believe our intent for writing is skewed. If we shy away from the truth, then all everyone will hear will be the lies Satan and the world sells them. If God wants to reach people through our writing, then that’s up to him, not to us. Our job is simply to possibly plant a small seed…God does the rest, and we shouldn’t even try to be the gardener, bc we can never fill that role…only God can.
Let me put it this way…we shouldn’t present truth in our writing to feel like we’ve done God and others a favor. Our job is to spread the Gospel (Matthew 28:19-20) and if we’re afraid to do that in our writing, which is what I know many of us see as a possible mission field, then idk if we’ll be brave enough to do it anywhere else.
I’ve been reading in the book of Acts lately, and while typing this God reminded me of when time was leading up to Paul’s arrest.
Everyone warned Paul to not go to Jerusalem, fearing that harm would come to him. But Paul, seeing their fear, responded by saying, ‘What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be imprisoned but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.’ (Acts 21:13-14, ESV) Paul, the disciples, Stephen, and so many other early Christians weren’t afraid of the cost of speaking the truth.
Maybe people won’t like our writing.
Maybe people will be offended by the truth found in what we write.
Maybe people will revile us.
Maybe people will hate us.
Maybe people will smear us.
But it doesn’t matter. The only opinion that matters is God’s.
And pls, pls know that this isn’t an attack on anyone 💕 I love y’all so much, and you are free to believe what you want to believe about this issue and write truth into your fiction in whatever way you feel is right for you. Love everyone here on KP!! 💕💕💕
'Thought I'd wait'
'For what?'
'For the right partner'(I love the way you started that paragraph. XD Idk know why, I guess I just find it humorous, lol.) I agree 100%.
Cool, and thank you!!
I tried to do an allegory for the first book I actually finished… it was pretty bad. Not to mention PrEAchY.
I feel that, sister.
BUT THE WINGFEATHER SAGA WAS SO GOOOODDD!!!
I still like it XD I find it possible to love two things equally, and still believe one of them fulfills their purpose better. It’s like how I love reading Stormlight Archive and Keeper of the Lost Cities, but have extremely different expectations for both.
Actually… now that I think about it… It could be argued the other way as well. That Christian authors do the same thing, just more subtly (hopefully). Oooh, now I’m going to be thinking about this for a while. XD How are we any different from secular authors pushing their agendas?
Thoughts thoughts thoughts!! This might help XD
We all have agendas and biases!! It is literally impossible to not have a worldview. Even if you believe nothing is right or wrong and every belief is meaningless, that is still a belief.
A lot of people say not to push an agenda. How are you supposed to do that? You build up a story on a foundation. If you write a character who does something stupid and gets hurt, THAT, in itself, is proof that you believe in cause and effect. (Look up David Hume.)
You cannot not have an agenda.
I’ve been struggling lately with writing my theme into my story and I’m wondering if I”m trying too hard. To be honest, I have a feeling that this trilogy is something that I get to practice my writing skills on and one day in the far, far future publish.
That can totally work! It’s hard to have a serious idea for a story, but not feel confident in your abilities. I’ve always wanted to write a story like Wrinkle in Time, but girl… that series is freakily good in some places where I don’t think I can replicate the deepness. It takes time to develop your beliefs and swim in them easily.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
You cannot not have an agenda.
True, true XD
'Thought I'd wait'
'For what?'
'For the right partner'@trailblazer @whalekeeper @freed_and_redeemed
You guys these thoughts are so good!!! I wish I had time to reply to them all now! But seeing as I don’t, lol, I should be able to reply to all of them later today!
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
I agree with everything Freedom is saying! There will always be people who will slander us and attack us simply because we believe something different. There will always be people who disagree with our views, and that’s okay. That’s not who I’m writing for. I’m writing for the people who need to hear what God wants to speak to them through my writing.
I had an experience during my one year in public school that I will never forget. I was on the student newspaper, and being a Christian conservative in a school with a majority of liberals, it was very tempting to keep my views hidden in a corner and not speak about what I believed. Usually, as a class, we brainstormed topic ideas together and then claimed the ones we wanted to do, but on one occasion I didn’t have any ideas and they just assigned me a topic (and after this they never assigned me a controversial topic again lol). I was supposed to write about the events of January 6, 2021, and see if I could find someone who was in Washington DC that day to interview. Idk how all of you guys feel about that, but from my personal perspective, the things I’ve heard and seen from eyewitnesses don’t match the narrative the mainstream media has been pushing. And of course, pretty much everyone else in my class followed the whole mainstream narrative. I decided I didn’t want to write an article based on my views on what happened; I was just going to interview multiple people who were there that day and share their perspectives on what they saw. So that’s what I did- I interviewed several people from my community who had gone to DC that day, and I wrote the article sharing their perspectives.
I expected some pushback, because I knew the views I was sharing went against everything the rest of the class was believing (which they were being told by the mainstream media). When I turned in the rough draft of my article for editing, the editor-in-chief brought my teacher into it, and both of them pointed out several things they wanted me to change in order to fall in line with the mainstream narrative. Now, I’m the type of person who doesn’t like to rock the boat (or at least I was XD, that’s changed a little in the past few years) but something in me just rose up and I decided I wasn’t gonna make the changes they wanted me to. For one thing, I was responsible to the people I interviewed to represent their views, regardless of my own opinions or anyone else’s opinions on the subject, and I knew that by changing those details would not be fair to the people I was representing.
So I listened to what they were telling me and then politely told them I didn’t feel that I could change the article when I was responsible to represent the views of those I’d interviewed. At that point, I didn’t know if they’d even let me publish the article without changing it, but I was willing to lose my good grade, and even my editorial position, if that’s what it took to stick with what I knew was right. Honestly, I didn’t even know I had that kind of courage in me, but I think the Holy Spirit just kind of took over at that point.
Miraculously, my teacher let me publish it without making any changes, and I was really surprised by the response I got. I expected a lot of negative feedback from my classmates, but I didn’t get anything negative. The editor-in-chief wrote me a note after the fact and told me she didn’t agree with the views in the article, but she respected me even more because of how I stuck with what I believed and didn’t back down.
Anywayyyy sorry that was so long- but my point is, what I learned from that is that there will always be people who disagree with you (and not everyone is going to treat you as well as my classmates did) but sticking with what you believe, especially when it’s truth, earns more respect from those around you than bowing to the culture. Writing that article and sticking to my guts was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, but I’m so glad I didn’t give in to what I knew wouldn’t be right.
OK I’m done with my rant now XD.
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
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