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I consider a sword going into the spiritual world as Black magic.
That’s a topic that we could have a long debate on XD, but for now I’ll just say that the word “spiritual” realm is a bit misleading. Basically, you should just think of it as a parallel, non-physical realm. The spiritual realm is obviously something that exists in real life, and we’re not trying to say that they’re the same thing. Does that make sense?
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📚 Appreciator of BooksI guess, but my warning remains. Stepping out of the physical automatically brings you into the spiritual realm. Prove me wrong. And before you say fantasy is different, the basics of reality are still the basics of fantasy. And the physical and spiritual are basics. Prove me wrong.
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I also would debate you, though I wish I could do it in person.
"You need French Toast."
I guess, but my warning remains. Stepping out of the physical automatically brings you into the spiritual realm. Prove me wrong. And before you say fantasy is different, the basics of reality are still the basics of fantasy.
I would disagree with the statement that the basics of reality are the basics of fantasy. Fantasy can have…whatever really. I’ve heard people say that in any story, the one thing you can’t change too much is human nature. If what you’re saying is that we can’t invent other realms of existence than physical and spiritual because those are the only ones that exist, and we can’t imagine something different, I agree. But I would also add that we can’t really comprehend the spiritual realm either. We imagine it based on the physical realm, even though it’s probably wildly different. So yeah, maybe any other realms we try to portray will just be a variation on the physical, but I can’t portray the true spiritual realm either, because I can’t comprehend it. So, yeah, I would agree that we can’t create realms completely unique from the physical, but we can’t even imagine the spiritual, except in terms of the physical. However, if you’re saying that we’re just not able to have other realms arbitrarily, then I have to disagree.
And lastly, I’ll just briefly touch on your concern about Black Magic. (There’s a whole KP article about it.) It’s the source of the magic that matters. If it comes from demonic sources, it’s black magic. But it can also come from God, and we call that miracles. It seems that your concern was specifically in regard to Vethe’s sword. Is there any specific reason you said it would be black magic, something about that power in general? Could there not be an angelic, Godly magic that let you do that?
Anyway, hopefully this all is coherent!
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@highscribeofaetherium @rae @jonas
I have a solution to your dilemma. A new character knocks her out before she realizes he’s there (I have just the right one)
A correct fantasy world has basics, whether you deny it or not, you cannot possibly create a fantasy world without carrying over parts of the real world. My point stands.
What we can comprehend of the spiritual realm is limited, but that’s because we cannot possibly comprehend it all. How do I know? The people who pursue the spiritual realm are torn apart. They do not belong to themselves. The spiritual realm is a realm that God does not want us to play with or completely understand. In fact, it is strictly forbidden to play with some things of the spiritual realm (I think one of the passages was in Deuteronomy). How much does Tolkien go into the spiritual? Not much, but it’s there. I use Tolkien as my standard, since I believe he portrays the Darkness and the Light in a realistic way.
I call it Black magic, because Black magic is any magic in fantasy that is evil. In real life, I believe all magic is evil, but in common fantasy terms, Black magic is demons, and magic is angels. Even something that seems good can be demons and that is Black magic. There is rarely just a fine line between demons and God working, you often can tell that there is demoniac things going on. I highly doubt God would have a sword that passes into the spiritual realm. I believe it to be demons.
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Why not? Someone else finally gets a bonk on the head instead of Nahim!
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I dodge the black magic bullet by making the villains use demonic (-ish, Pixies count as demons (more accurately, daemons) in my story) powers, and the heroes use interdimensional science. The stones they use? I call them “Relics”, but they’re basically glass jewels that come from other dimensions and get their characteristics through their unique size, shape, and so on. In their native dimension, the stones have no powers, but in others, they do. Which probably conflicts with the RP story, but I didn’t think this through so well just say it works the same 🙂 I’m also implementing music as magic (faeries), but since the music is a gift from God, it’s not black magic.
My story is a sci-fi disguised as epic world-building fantasy 🫲🫤🫱
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@rae ok I’ll get to it tonight I have to go
I highly doubt God would have a sword that passes into the spiritual realm. I believe it to be demons.
In real life? Sure. But in a fantasy universe, the powers necessary to create that could exist and not be black magic.
Here’s another thing that can be considered. There can also be “magic” from nature. This is really what all the magic in me and HighScribe’s universe is. It is part of creation, so it is ultimately derived from God, but creation is fallen, so it is as well, just like everything else in creation. I put “magic” in quotations, because it isn’t really. It is part of the natural order of this universe, even though it doesn’t exist in ours, whereas actual magic violates natural laws. I feel that this “magic” is the best option. It becomes a part of the natural order, which is at the same time created by God and fallen. It isn’t in itself bad, because God created it, but it can be used for bad just like any tool, because of the fall.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksThat’s basically what I do. The magic isn’t actual magic, because it is part of the natural world rather than derived from supernatural forces.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksCan love be used for evil? i don’t mean romantic love, I mean “charity” as it is stated in the KJV. Are human or creatures good, just used for evil? Charity is pure, and can never be used for evil. Humans are by nature fallen, and there is no good in them beside God. Even good things, without God, is evil. Paul said that in Romans, I think. Choose what your “magic” is, totally good, like charity, or fallen and there is NO good in it but God.
or you could show me a third type of thing in our fallen world, which i think you can’t.
Ack, this is getting too much like debate, I already did formal debate for this semester!!!"You need French Toast."
A correct fantasy world has basics, whether you deny it or not, you cannot possibly create a fantasy world without carrying over parts of the real world. My point stands.
What do you mean by “correct”? Yes, a fantasy world will have things from our world, but you can change most anything. The only reason it has to have a basis from our world is because we are influenced by our experiences. I would say that there are only three rules limiting fantasy worlds:
- Our imagination (sounds cheesy, but it is literally true)
- Moral rules (this is more of a should. Technically you could ignore this rule, but you shouldn’t)
- Internal consistency
If you have these, your world can be as weird and different as you want.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksIf you have these, your world can be as weird and different as you want.
True, but we’re not talking normal fantasy, since normal fantasy can portray Black magic as good. We are talking godly fantasy. In godly fantasy, we must make the distinction from Darkness and Light, Hope and Despair, Love, and Hate. God, and the world.
I believe you think I am attacking you, and your sister. I believe you think I think you are using Black magic in your writing the wrong way. No. I’m saying step careful. And then I proceed to get in a debate on why you should step careful, or more carefully.
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