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@linus-smallprint Okay, I’m back.
Ellette does make a good point that it’s not about the images being creepy (trust me, it could be much worse), it’s just that she’s a bit uncomfortable with imagining them when they’re clearly sinful, even if it’s fake.
I can kinda get behind that.
But Whaley also has a point in that no matter what you do, someone is gonna get offended and might even refer to you by you some not nice names or call “witchcraft!”. Even Christians.
My take: While it did make me a little uncomfortable, it didn’t stray into “bad, remove it” territory, and I skip over that kind of thing in books most of the time anyway. You can edit your magic system as much as you want, but if you wanna please everyone you’re gonna have to remove it entirely, which would be worse off for your story.
"When in doubt, eat cheese crackers."-me to my charries who don't even know about cheese crackers
Thank you for taking my feedback so graciously. It’s hard having stances like this, (and many others) that seem silly or foolish. I think you’re the first person to take something like this that I said and not turn around and try to bite my head off or attack me. A lot of times people will ask me questions like this, and I’m sitting there going, “am I in the mood to be torn apart and attacked.” So yeah, thanks for not doing that. 🙂
I think Stripe is an awesome character and I don’t really think he’s someone who needs to be worked on. He’s got great personality and I think he’s perfect as the side character that he is. I would love to see a redemption arch with him sometime in the future, but I wouldn’t feel like you wasted an opportunity of that doesn’t happen. You know what I mean? Anyhow, those are my thoughts on him. It’ll be fun to have him around in the later books.
I don’t think your world building as flaws or huge gaps. The one thing I really am interested in his the threat to their kingdom. What does it benefit the bad guys to attack them, what will that look like for the good guys, who are the bad guys and where do they come from, etc. However, to go into that in this book loses the plot twist with the king, so as long as those gaps are filled in during the second book I think your good.
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
I have… a lot of feedback. *coughs*
Thank you Linus for giving me access to this story! I have a lot of thoughts and I hope they can be of some use to you! Obviously these are my opinions, so use them as you will. 🙂
Characters:
~ Which character(s) did you find the most compelling/relatable/believable and why?
Love Tyn. Her deer-in-the-headlights weakness she kept trying to overcome was really fun to watch, and also really creative. Her personality was good too – just the right amount of confidence and dedication. If any girl should foster their own confidence, it should be her. Would definitely like to see her more in the future.
I might be the first to say this… I like Eric, too. Yeah, he’s a little wishy-washy, but he has that awkward teen energy that is funny to watch. Many people have started out like him, and ended as truly good and well-rounded individuals. I think it’s just a favorite character preference thing.
~ Were there any character(s) you struggled to connect with? What could make them more engaging?
While I understand every character has to carry a bit of the exposition, Charles felt more like a vessel for Christianity and for some of the plot rather than his own character. I think people would like him better if his personality was fleshed out into something more.
He has a super cool physical design already. Maybe it would help to picture him as a younger lad, and piece together his past motives and quirks. That’s what I did with my adult character.
~ Did Alan and the other character’s motivations and actions feel believable?
– I really wanted to mention how King Cyrus was a reasonable antagonist. Oppression stories have never been my personal favorite, mostly because the villains have shallow reasons for oppressing the victims, and the victims take on a saint-level status in the story. Cyrus was different. He didn’t oppress the Faithful for the sake of Evil™, it was about controlling the people while a bigger threat loomed over his kingdom. If I was a king who wanted to protect, and had otherwise neutral morals, I would do the same thing. Also, he wants to unite all the people equally, which gives him an interesting motive.
– Confusion: Why did Tyn react so strongly to the first arrest of some Faithful, if she already knew it was happening and didn’t express her hesitancy beforehand? She had after all wanted to join the army. I assumed she had thought through what she might have to do in this specific army.
– Also confusion: When Tyn and Oliver turned Alan in, their motives felt a little contradictory. They want Alan to stop using magic… But they’re also taking him to King Cyrus who will force him to use magic?
~ Were the relationships between characters well-developed and meaningful?
I liked the trio energy between Alan, Tyn and Oliver. I’m a sucker for trios.
~ Were there any characters you wanted to see more of?
Alan, Tyn, and Oliver. >:P
~ Did any characters feel unnecessary to the story?
None that I can think of immediately.
Plot:
~ Was the plot engaging? Which parts did you find the hardest to put down?
Yep, it was a fun read! I was really curious where the story was going to go after Tyn and Oliver visited the king. I also enjoyed the part when Alan realized he couldn’t use magic to escape something as simple as a prison cell, because he had denied his powers.
~ Did the pacing feel consistent throughout the book? If not, where did it lag or feel dull?
Overall, the pacing was consistent. You did really well with keeping up the energy.
One thing I might have liked to see would be Alan’s time training in the military with Oliver, Tyn, and the various guards. The narrator skimmed over that part, but since it was such a big plot point, you could definitely spend more time describing Alan’s life there. If you want to be consistent with Alan’s goals and inner conflicts, you could show how he slowly begins to sympathize with those who are mistreated, but then when his goodness is acknowledged by other characters, he reverts back to the ‘army hero’ narrative in his mind. You have the freedom to play with those two sides of Alan while he’s in training, and how they might conflict when he makes decisions.
You can even make the Faithful arrest a type of inner ultimatum. Like maybe the rules of the army allow him to be promoted after that specific date if he’s been dutiful. At that point, you’ve escalated the inner conflict enough to give the reader a bigger sense of stake.
That’s just a suggestion though. ;]
~ Were there any plot twists or surprises that stood out to you?
I didn’t experience much surprise, but that’s mostly because I have a chill attitude when reading. Any surprises I experienced are explained below.
~ Was the ending fitting and satisfying, or did you feel it came too suddenly?
I definitely expected a conclusion to the ‘darkest hour’ plot point, and when it didn’t come, that was the closest I came to surprise. I feel neutral about your choice; that’s how you wanted to finish it, and you’re obviously going to write another book.
~ Were any parts of the story confusing or difficult to follow?
1.
At the beginning of Chapter 11, Alan has a section of contemplating his past. It is suggested that Tyn’s outburst was the cause of this. If I read this section out of context, I would think Alan performed a spell in front of Tyn, and feels guilty about it. This quote suggests the same thing:
“Before his father Shattered, Alan had not known entirely what magic did to its users, but for what he did today, he should have known better.”
My confusion is, when Alan arrested that family, what did that have to do with Shattering? He didn’t use magic at all. So how does that scenario relate to his wizard powers, which become the topic of his inner conflict right after the arrest?
2.
In Chapter 18, Alan and Tyn were kind of acting sneaky, and I thought they were going to sneak out of the army. So when they openly fought Rour, I was very confused for a second. That might have been your intent, but I thought I’d let you know.
3.
Eric’s betrayal was an accident, and that surprised me. Maybe instill a little personal frustration at Martha (for whatever reason) so his accidental betrayal feels a little more plausible?
I think most of these problems can be fixed with some well-placed sentences.
~ Were there any unresolved plot threads you wish had been dealt with in this book?
None that I can think of.
World:
~ Was the worldbuilding clear and immersive?
Yes. I really really liked your fantasy words. ‘Yohstallew’ and that word describing a piece of clothing (I forget what it was) were some of my favorites. Also, the mentions of locomotives and lightbulbs while in the king’s study immediately had me thinking of the future, particularly a steampunk-inspired future.
~ Did it feel incomplete in any area?
I would love more description of the kingdom they live in. The flora, fauna, architecture, economy… but that’s my world builder nerdiness. XD
~ Were the rules of the world (e.g., magic, fantasy races, laws) explained well?
Yep!
~ Did the integration of Christian themes into the fantasy world feel natural?
See the Theology section.
~ Did any parts of the world feel unnecessary? Do you think any parts of the worldbuilding should be cut out?
The most common topic which keeps popping up is your inclusion of the magic images. So, uh, I guess I’ll give my rigmarole.
First of all, I have nothing against people who don’t care for reading this stuff. I have a friend who is super sensitive, and I respect that when we choose movies to watch. I know my own limits, and I would be annoyed if someone made fun of me for it. I also respect those who think the images are wrong to include, and if anyone thinks I say something attacking, please point out what I said!
You have made it undoubtedly clear in every inch of this draft that Alan’s magic is inherently evil, and you don’t approve of real life magic. The magic imagery is vague and completely fictional. You have included it only to show how easily tempting it is for Alan, and because these intrusive thoughts would only happen in your world, they aren’t reasonably harmful in real life.
If someone is still uncomfortable reading, it is within their right to skip those scenes. Their level of comfort is just different from yours.
On the other hand, has your writing crossed the line and become legitimately harmful?
You might worry this story will become a stumbling block, but… Someone would have to pick out the wood, saw and sand it down, put it in the right place, and purposefully forget where it is so they can trip over it. That is the amount of effort the reader would need to be tempted by your story.
I think any negative thing in a story can be twisted by the reader as an intent to encourage harm. You’re not wrong to describe some of the magical process, similarly to how people have described, war, abuse, poverty, addiction.
Someone is always going to be offended because you described something they didn’t like. Yes, we should always listen to people who find something at fault morally with our work, because they can nudge us in the right direction. But at some point, you cannot make everything inoffensive.
That is why I support keeping the imagery. So… yeah.
~ Was the balance between action and description effective in creating the world?
It was good! Same thing as above; I would love more setting description.
~ Any topics you recommend I research to improve worldbuilding and make it more realistic?
Nothing necessary that I can think of.
Theology:
~ Any theological concerns for the story?
~ Did this book balance storytelling with faith well? How do you feel about the way it portrayed God?
~ Talk about character development in relation to this.
^^
So in response to all three of these questions, I believe the overt inclusion of theology is a matter of personal preference. Some people choose to do it, others don’t, and I prefer to judge these stories without giving or taking extra points for theology.
I will say something about the character development, though.
Within Alan’s inner conflict, he starts off as a wanna-be hero who keeps trying to find a cause for his heroicness, whether that be for the lyen kingdom, or for something else. He is also addicted to magic because it makes him feel like a hero.
At the end, he becomes a Christian. A Christian is someone who believes in God, and God’s son the Christ, who came down to earth as a man to withstand God’s wrath and take our place as a sacrifice.
*Makes random hand gestures* What’s the connection here? What is it about Christianity that fixes the narratives in his mind? How does it solve his hunger for heroism and power? Why is it right, and other causes are wrong?
I think there is a key element to Christianity which Alan was missing. The Faithful, unlike other vague causes for heroism, have an eternal moral compass. Instead of depending on an image of heroicness, they have legitimate values that they never let go. If pre-saved Alan saw someone do something good and loving without any traditional heroic sense and without recognition, something even dislikable at first glance, that would sell the difference between the two loyalties.
Does that make sense? Either way, this isn’t necessary, just a way to strengthen the character arc.
~ What would you say the main morals of the story were?
‘Know what you are loyal to and why you fight for it.’
~ Did this story make you think about anything you hadn’t before?
I like how the magic was treated like an addiction which started off harmless enough. Although some people may have read it as just about magic, I thought it was about addiction in general.
Other:
~ What was your favourite part of the book overall?
I felt like the world was open and innovative, and anything could happen. The Narrator had an energetic, on-top-of-it voice which I appreciated as we got into the latter half of the story.
~ Which scenes do you think would benefit the most from illustrations?
Not sure, I think anything you draw will look good. :]
~ What would you say the target audience of this book would be?
10-14 years old, although I’m not the best judge, because I was reading Faerie Queene when I was twelve for some unreasonable reason. :’) Older teens might like TNPT for the cozy familiarity of that fantasy age range.
~ Do you anticipate the sequel?
Sure!
~ Any predictions or things you would like to happen for book 2 and its characters?
– I predict Alan is going to learn more about the manipulation of animal features on humans, and he’s probably going to figure out some way to fight Iskyagus without magic. I think that could be really fun because there are many different approaches to tackling raw force.
– What would I like to happen? …A Tyn-focused book. Well, okay, I would like to see some more world-building. The mentions of technological advancement made me a little hungry for steampunk and that could be a fun inclusion as the story goes on. I would also love some exploration of royal society, since there are lots of kingdoms and border shifts.
~ Any other thoughts?
Good job!! YOU WROTE A WHoLE FREAKING BOOK, dUde!! Have you given yourself a celebratory gift yet?
#ProtectAdolinKholin
Yay, Wyoh didn’t eat those words! You have no idea how glad I am. *sweats*
#ProtectAdolinKholin
So what are your thoughts on this magic system? Since I want to write a story with a way that deals with intrusive thoughts that more people can be comfortable with reading, I want to know how I can make more of you comfortable with it. (I do recognize that there will always be someone out there who will be disturbed by it, but I don’t want to go any further with it than necessary).
Hmmm.
Initially, I was thinking that the spells didn’t bother me. But then I took the time to read some of Ellette’s replies, and now I’m not so sure. It’s really up to you–since it’s an allegory for sin, it could be that describing them is kind of like if you wrote a murder mystery and described the murder. I mean, I don’t like reading gory fiction, but there’s nothing bad about describing the crime. Or suppose you were writing from the perspective of a villain, like I’m doing in one of my WIP. Of course you’d need to tell the reader exactly how the villain finds it in them to be so cruel. And you’d have to describe their evil acts just like you’d describe the main character’s good ones.
BUT.
On the other hand, it’s magic. It’s directly contradictory to everything Christians stand for. The Fall of man happened because humans didn’t want to be satisfied with God’s definition of goodness–we wanted to have power and knowledge for ourselves. We wanted to be like God. Magic is an attempt at this. It’s taking matters into one’s own hands and one’s own power.
To write something that would be a stumbling block for the weak–those who might fall into real-life magic–would be horrible.
So I get both sides. And because I get both sides, I’d say that it’s wise to stay on the side of caution.
Also, I somehow completely forgot to add Stripe to my list of characters I’m most eager for feedback on.
All he needed was a hug, and now he’s great!
"Io non ho bisogno di denaro.
Ho bisogno di sentimenti."Sorry, I didn’t realize you had replied to this before I logged off yesterday. Thank you for your thoughts as well. I was talking to my dad about the issue and he had similar thoughts.
On the other hand, it’s magic. It’s directly contradictory to everything Christians stand for. The Fall of man happened because humans didn’t want to be satisfied with God’s definition of goodness–we wanted to have power and knowledge for ourselves. We wanted to be like God. Magic is an attempt at this. It’s taking matters into one’s own hands and one’s own power.
This is actually a theme I’ve been playing with. Cyrus wanted Alan to take matters into his own hands and use magic. Other characters later on may use magic so that they can become ‘saviours’.
Thank you for your thoughts as well.
@ellette-giselle @keilah-h @theducktatorTo help me make a decision, I’ve created a table, listing the various reasons I have received or thought of on both sides of the argument. I still haven’t come to a final decision and I will let you all know when I do, but for anyone curious, here it is:
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
I do have some questions/comments to your overall feedback. I will start with Ellette since she posted first.
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Don’t have to much to ask you, but:
Martha. Especially some Alan/Martha moments. *blink blink blink. Blinkity-blink blink* lol.
I would still like to know what your thoughts were on switching to Martha in that second-last chapter.
Just that this was a great book and one that I would totally buy. Well done! Keep me in the loop if you get it published.
Thank you! And thank you for the feedback! I appreciate having you here to read it and give feedback on it.
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Oh I thought it was fine. It seems like a foretelling that she’s going to become a key character later on. As long as that’s true, I say keep it.
You’re welcome for the feedback!
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
Love Tyn. …like Eric, too.
Glad to hear it. These two were the least liked by my readers in the first draft. Tyn is pretty much the same. I think she is just a love-or-hate character. Eric was a disaster, and I almost removed him from the story altogether before I decided to change his role and personality because I realized he could add something to Alan’s story. OS I am very happy to here these two were your favourites.
He has a super cool physical design already. Maybe it would help to picture him as a younger lad, and piece together his past motives and quirks. That’s what I did with my adult character.
That’s a good suggestion.
– Confusion: Why did Tyn react so strongly to the first arrest of some Faithful, if she already knew it was happening and didn’t express her hesitancy beforehand? She had after all wanted to join the army. I assumed she had thought through what she might have to do in this specific army.
Hmm. I might have to think through this one more. Tyn is a bit of a hot-head thought.
– Also confusion: When Tyn and Oliver turned Alan in, their motives felt a little contradictory. They want Alan to stop using magic… But they’re also taking him to King Cyrus who will force him to use magic?
It’s meant to be that they don’t want to do it, but they feel that they have no choice, or else the world will be destroyed.
I definitely expected a conclusion to the ‘darkest hour’ plot point, and when it didn’t come, that was the closest I came to surprise. I feel neutral about your choice; that’s how you wanted to finish it, and you’re obviously going to write another book.
I didn’t want to include Charles’s execution in this book. It will be in the prologue of book two. The reason why is that it starts to set off a few things for that story.
In Chapter 18, Alan and Tyn were kind of acting sneaky, and I thought they were going to sneak out of the army. So when they openly fought Rour, I was very confused for a second. That might have been your intent, but I thought I’d let you know.
Nope. That was not my intent. Didn’t Tyn say in the previous chapter that she was going to stay in the army? *goes to check.* Oh, it was in Chapter the 16th. Was that unclear?
Eric’s betrayal was an accident, and that surprised me. Maybe instill a little personal frustration at Martha (for whatever reason) so his accidental betrayal feels a little more plausible?
Do you mean before his betrayal? I take it you are looking for some foreshadowing that he really isn’t one of The Faithful. So do you mean something like a small amount of annoyance that Martha is always dragging him off to see The Faithful?
*Makes random hand gestures* What’s the connection here? What is it about Christianity that fixes the narratives in his mind? How does it solve his hunger for heroism and power? Why is it right, and other causes are wrong?
I think there is a key element to Christianity which Alan was missing. The Faithful, unlike other vague causes for heroism, have an eternal moral compass. Instead of depending on an image of heroicness, they have legitimate values that they never let go. If pre-saved Alan saw someone do something good and loving without any traditional heroic sense and without recognition, something even dislikable at first glance, that would sell the difference between the two loyalties.
I see what you mean. I was focusing more on Alan trying to save himself and then realising he couldn’t. But I guess he did want to be a hero even before he used magic. Alan does make the switch from being a hero to glorify himself to being a hero to save, but your suggestion would help this stand out more. I will see if I can do something about that.
Good job!! YOU WROTE A WHoLE FREAKING BOOK, dUde!! Have you given yourself a celebratory gift yet?
Um… I bought Rivals of Aether on Steam last week and had McDonald’s for lunch yesterday. But not because I had finished this draft. Maybe my celebratory gift will be a break from TNPT for a little bit before I start working on a book. I might do some different writing (outside of Ehverwyld. I’m even thinking of writing a theological paper) and/or practice my drawing some more. I’ll also accept your TNPT meme’s and Ellette’s moodboard as celebatory gifts.
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Thank you very much for your feedback. It was helpful. I think I now have a clearer picture of what I need to work on.
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
I read your to-magic-or-n0t-t0-magic document and it seems to me that there are more reasons for including it than excluding it. At this point all you’ve got to do is evaluate whether or not the reasons for excluding spell images are so strong that they cancel out all of the numerous reasons to include it.
I dunno, it’s a hard call.
"Io non ho bisogno di denaro.
Ho bisogno di sentimenti."OS I am very happy to here these two were your favourites.
Glad that makes you feel better!
Hmm. I might have to think through this one more. Tyn is a bit of a hot-head though.
You could maybe play off the fact that kentors naturally avoid confrontation. Although Tyn wants to face conflict directly, she might still be avoidant without realizing it.
It’s meant to be that they don’t want to do it, but they feel that they have no choice, or else the world will be destroyed.
Okay. If it was clear enough for everyone else, then this should be fine.
I didn’t want to include Charles’s execution in this book.
👍
Nope. That was not my intent. Didn’t Tyn say in the previous chapter that she was going to stay in the army? *goes to check.* Oh, it was in Chapter the 16th. Was that unclear?
I knew Tyn would stay behind, but it was a little unclear what Alan’s plan was. I knew he wanted out of the army, but I expected it to be a less dramatic desertion. XD He could just sneak out, right? Stripe wouldn’t have to reveal himself as a threat to Rour in that scenario.
Do you mean before his betrayal? I take it you are looking for some foreshadowing that he really isn’t one of The Faithful. So do you mean something like a small amount of annoyance that Martha is always dragging him off to see The Faithful?
I wasn’t really sure if you were portraying him as a Faithful or not. In any case, I was wondering why exactly he gave away the information that easily. I was actually leaning towards the idea that he was a Faithful, and he just made a mistake because he’s so easily frightened.
I wasn’t sure if that was your intent or not, and that’s why I pointed it out.
If you want him to betray them because he doesn’t actually have any sympathy for their cause, then a few hints would be helpful. That could include annoyance towards Martha for stirring up the waters in his family.
On the other hand, if he did it because he was frightened and generally too mentally frozen to resist their questions, you could build up that weakness within him before the interrogation so it isn’t out of the blue. I like this option the best, since it isn’t as cliche as a full-on betrayal.
I see what you mean. I was focusing more on Alan trying to save himself and then realising he couldn’t. But I guess he did want to be a hero even before he used magic. Alan does make the switch from being a hero to glorify himself to being a hero to save, but your suggestion would help this stand out more. I will see if I can do something about that.
Whatever you feel like focusing on, go with that. It all depends on where you would like the theme to go. These suggestions are just here to help you pinpoint what you want. 🙃
Um… I bought Rivals of Aether on Steam last week and had McDonald’s for lunch yesterday. But not because I had finished this draft. Maybe my celebratory gift will be a break from TNPT for a little bit before I start working on a book. I might do some different writing (outside of Ehverwyld. I’m even thinking of writing a theological paper) and/or practice my drawing some more. I’ll also accept your TNPT meme’s and Ellette’s moodboard as celebatory gifts.
Alright, as long as you make sure to give yourself all the credit. 🙂
Thank you very much for your feedback. It was helpful. I think I now have a clearer picture of what I need to work on.
No problem! Even with some of the confusions, it was still an enjoyment to read.
#ProtectAdolinKholin
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