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@everyone
It would be perforable if we keep any incoming Harry Potter debate on the other KOTLC forum (that way we don’t take over both)
The reason for Harry Potter is the witchcraft.
They deal with literal witchcraft in Harry Potter. They do not in KOTLC, so…it’s not the same thing 😊 but yes if we could keep the HP talk to a minimum to non-existent since most of us are not allowed to delve into those things that would be great
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSeb@godlyfantasy12 yeah probably a good idea for us not to get into that.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
If you’re uncomfortable with talking about it, we’ll drop the subject. Besides, this is for the KotLC debate, people.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
@whalekeeper Good idea, let’s talk more about KOTLC!
I like the series, but being a science person, I wasn’t a huge fan of how she doesn’t explain the natural laws of the world. Like okay, I get that the theory of relativity is way off in the KOTLC universe, but what theory do they have in place to explain its [real] effects?
Or the periodic table. Apparently the elements are completely different? Like, do the elves even believe atoms exist? I don’t mind the laws of nature being completely broken/different/whatever than humans assume, but I need you to explain what the world really works like instead of saying “Humans have it wrong and that’s that.”
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
@whalekeeper I read through the series in, like, two weeks? Over a year ago? So my memory is a little fuzzy 😛
Overall, I would give series was a solid B+. Like, there were things that irked me (for instance, some of the humor felt…off. Like, Sophie’s supposed to be saving the world and struggling through all these things, and the next page is a bunch of gross-out humor. Which isn’t bad or wrong or anything, just…really not my thing) and yeah, Foxfire gave me definite Hogwarts vibes (but without the coziness??). But the character dynamics are what kept me reading, and I suspect that’s what keeps a lot of people so deeply in the KOTLC fandom. For instance, I usually am frustrated by or, at the very least, Couldn’t Care Less about love triangles, but am Very Invested in seeing which boy Sophie picks. (It looks like she’s picking the Correct Boy™️, which is super exciting.) I didn’t see a toooon of similarities between Tolkien’s elves and Messenger’s elves personally? Like, I totally get your points—I just went through a very intense Tolkien Elf Phase when I was younger and the vibes feel different enough to me so that they each still feel unique. Does that make any sense? (Though lol, you made me frantically Google “are elves vegetarian” because somehow I wrote a 20+ page paper on LOTR and missed that fact. Oops.)
“Seven seconds till the end. Time enough for you. Perhaps. But what will you do with it?”
@keilah-h They never really do explain the science, do they? I would definitely have appreciated more of an explanation—no wonder poor Sophie is so confused by it all! Plus, the whole “unmapped stars” business…doesn’t seem very scientifically accurate, no?
“Seven seconds till the end. Time enough for you. Perhaps. But what will you do with it?”
Right, that was another thing. I felt like, if they hadn’t said, ‘this is scientifically accurate but humans think it’s magic,’ or if they explained it, it would have settled better. But otherwise, the magic was perfectly fine with me. Made sense, didn’t feel too crazy different, but still unfamiliar. Good sytem.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
Okay, okay, this opinion checks out 😜 It is middle-grade leaning into YA (or YA leaning into middle-grade?), after all. So the humour is prioritized sometimes.
Ooo, who is the Correct Boy™, specifically? O.O
Because, if you mean Keefe, he is undoubtedly better than Fitz. Just sayin’.
Yeah, they are different, in style of writing most noticeably. The KotLC elves are kinda goofier, and neon? You know what I mean? If they had colors for personalities, they would be neon, whereas the LotR elves are on the dark\paler, natural colors spectrum.
XD I didn’t know they were vegetarian either until we rewatched the movies, and I saw The Hobbit‘s cutscenes. Yes, I know, I learned this from the movies. But I checked online, and I think it’s true.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
@whalekeeper @lewilliams yeah I liked the “magic” system. It didn’t seem like magic to me. I could totally see it being a supplement to the way the world works, not an outright replacement. Especially since the elves are so much more powerful than humans.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
- Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
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@whalekeeper I know I’m 10 months late for this debate, but I’m going to throw my 2 cents in anyway since I recently read the 1st book. Here are the reasons I think book one was terrible fiction:
1. The 1st 10 pages were horrible. Not enough introduction, meets the love interest too soon, too many magic powers too fast all at once, etc. etc.
2. Throughout, way too many reasons that Sophie is “special”, even among the elves. I mean, they just keep coming, right up until the end of book 1 (which I do not intend to read past, the 1st book was so bad).
3. No good role models. The ones that are good are not portayed so.
4. Too much school. It becomes a high school drama, not a fantasy story.
Oh, and I’m sorry, but Keefe sucks. He just does, at least in book 1. I don’t know if he gets redeemed later or not, but if not, I would personally strangle him (and why does everyone love him so much??). He has no work ethic, no sense of modesty, no morals to speak of, and he’s popular in a school where being respectable doesn’t pay (always a warning sign if you know anything about anything). And so I come to the last reason I’m not reading any more of this series:
5. The one boy who was a good friend, cared for Sophie, and was nice (no not Fitz he sucks too just less) becomes a traitor later in the series. Obviously, Mrs. Messenger decided he was too good to be true and bumped him off in favor of Fitz (who I think the author wants us to think is best).
All told, this series will not go down in history as good literature, it will go down history as an example of the junk we teens consume because the effort of a good story is too much for us (no offence to any here). But that is exactly the reason I am glad I read it. I was able to glean several story-changing ideas for my own story, by observing what I hated about this one and doing the reverse. And of course, my pet peeve about modern romance was realized yet again: no one gets married in the end, as born witness by the fact that people still think either Fitz or Keefe. No security! No assurance! No stability! No fidelity! But don’t get me started. Anyway, hope y’all find this helpful. Just don’t make me read another one of those books.
@calyhuge
I was literally JUST going to revisit this topic 🤣 for certain reasons. I’ll post what I was going to say myself in a little bit, and respond to your points here.
1. Entirely agree.
2. Yep yep yep, and not just in the first book. Onward, as they say.
3. One of my biggest character critiques.
4. I wouldn’t necessarily call this a bad thing, since fantasy can be in pretty much any setting. I actually felt like they didn’t describe the school part enough. I couldn’t tell you what most of the classes were, or what Sophie’s assignments were.
Oh, and I’m sorry, but Keefe sucks.
Okay, I’m actually going to defend Keefe here. 😂
Basically what you’re saying is that he’s a classic highschool troublemaker. That itself doesn’t bother me, because not all characters are meant to be academic or morally upright. I DO have a problem with the morals of the series as a whole, but Keefe as an individual is pretty mild and safe. He’s just the stereotypical class clown who causes trouble. Fred and George from HP are literally the same thing, and they are some of the most wholesome characters in fantasy history.
As for why everyone loves him so much… he gets this semi-tragic backstory in book three or four? Basically becomes the new main character because Messenger gets tired of Sophie. It’s a thing that doesn’t make sense until you read further.
His dialogue also peaks in, I think, book three? He sounds so much more human than everyone else. It’s almost unnerving.
In conclusion of this point, Keefe is not the most awesome character in all of history, but he is the most awesome in KotLC.
5. …Who is this boy? Because if you’re talking about Dex, he doesn’t betray Sophie. He’s actually great as a best friend, compared to some of her other friends.
All told, this series will not go down in history as good literature, it will go down history as an example of the junk we teens consume because the effort of a good story is too much for us (no offence to any here). But that is exactly the reason I am glad I read it. I was able to glean several story-changing ideas for my own story, by observing what I hated about this one and doing the reverse.
I feel this, and also feel that there’s a time and place for this series to thrive. That time frame is just slim. Like you said, it’s teen junk. I like collecting junk. Lots of people do, and no shame. In fact, this series has become something I go back to whenever I want some laughs, and that’s okay. It’s just never going to sell for more than a few dimes, that’s all.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
Okay, completely unconnected, and I’ll disappear after this because I have never read KotLC, but…
If elves are vegetarian, why do they hunt deer in the Hobbit?
I mean, I am the person who has never seen the movies and despite not living under a rock still clings to a black haired, green eyed Legolas. I have also only read two stories from the Silimarilian and that partially, so I can’t call myself much of a fan. I just… Never noticed this.
(Isn’t there meat served in Riverdale?)
Ok, I will go now to lurk about in the shadows until I find an answer. I beg pardon for interrupting the debate.
*Vanishes*
You have listened to fears, child. Come, let me breathe on you... Are you brave again? -Aslan
Huh.
That is…
I would have never thought about that. Splendiferously good question. Tell me if you ever find an answer.
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
So.
Um…
Strong thoughts.
I’ve actually continued the series – on book five now – and I think I can judge it better now, being halfway through. I know the world well.
That being said, I don’t know everything 😅
Keeper of the Lost Cities is one of those things where I love it and hate it simultaneously, completely on purpose. I read it all the time, and it cheers me up, like a comedy or soap opera. So in that way, a strange kind of way, I am a fan.
And like I said above, there is a time and a place for these books. It’s like comparing a thanksgiving meal and junk food. Both are delicious in their own ways, but only one is truly a good meal.
If you are a fan of KotLC look away!!! NOW!! I MEAN it, mean it. Here are the most solid critiques for the series and they basically cover everything from start to finish, so you are going to be offended. You will not like me for probably a solid twenty-four hours. Or perhaps even to the end of time.
If you are sensitive to this kind of stuff, SERIOUSLY.
For your own feelings, go away.
*Takes a deep breath*
Without further ado, I am now going to present the biggest final problems I have with KotLC.
Why??
I just really want to overanalyze something right now 😂😂
I know it’s not that important, it’s just a YA series, and nObody asked for this. Probably no more than one person will read through all of this, because it honestly doesn’t matter.
But I DO IT ANYWAY.
First off – addressing the Harry Potter and LotR Ripoff critique I used to stand by. I still think it is kind of valid? But not as much as I used to think. For people who have not read HP, yes, KotLC rips it off, and I can give you extremely specific examples (look no farther than the Prattles pins). Even if HP is a series questioned by people on here, that doesn’t mean we should think KotLC – which heavily imitates it – is superior, and pretend the imitation didn’t happen. However it is no longer my main critique because the series as a whole has strayed from that tendency in the continuing books.
*Another deep breath*
I sound so academic right now.
XD
Secondly – what do I like about KotLC?
Um… I like Keefe’s dialogue. The way he talks sounds the most natural, and definitely the most hilarious. He is a diamond among regular ol’ rock.
Dex was a great best friend, until the author decided he was lame.
I enjoy some of the descriptions. I think Messenger really likes pretty things, and that shines occasionally through her writing.
Some of the character interactions in book four were super cute, and probably inspired by real life. Stuff like the window sleepovers between Sophie and Keefe, and the gnome girl braiding her troubles into her hair, so she could sleep. Very cute. And these moments are sprinkled throughout the series when you least expect them.
The drama is, in a way, addicting 😂
Almost made me cry once. Granted, from frustrated laughter. But nevertheless.
A few concepts are cool aesthetic wise, like drawing light from stars through telescopes, or the dinosaurs outside the farmhouse-ish home.
The alicorn always makes me smile,
There are some genuinely funny jokes.
Shannon Messenger has a sweet personality in her acknowledgements and interviews, and has never acted entitled or annoying in any of them.
…
Now, the actual critiques.
Has No Story To Tell
There is no point to KotLC. There is no moral, and no character growth.
The only theme I can salvage from it, is Lies vs. Truth. This theme is pummeled into the reader from the first book. We talk about how the Council has always kept secrets, always known things we don’t. The characters want to know the truth about their world, and ask for it over and over again. But here’s the thing. We never actually talk about this theme in a meaningful way.
There is never a sense of right and wrong (because the characters literally do anything they want), and because of that, we never feel like a lie is really evil, or a truth is really good. They’re just neutral, aimless facts, that seem to have emotional weight to the characters? But when you really think about it, it doesn’t really matter, because those same characters are also lying, and also breaking rules, and also holding secrets. And we are never shown when a lie can be actually used for good, or when the truth can cause hurt.
For example, the Black Swan (a secret organization who are the “good guys”) talk about how the Council have been keeping secrets for centuries, and have been using those secrets wrongly. But we are never told how or why, or even what those secrets are. And worse yet, the Black Swan do the exact same thing, and it is never talked about. It gets smoothed over like a fresh layer of frosting. They literally created Sophie with unstable powers, let her go through traumatizing stuff as an elf/human, and thrust her into all this destiny stuff without even asking her if she wanted all of this. Her life is a mess because of their little experiment. And they’re supposed to be the good guys?
I just started Keeper of the Lost Cities: Lodestar. And here is one of the first major conclusions by the mentor character:
– Mr. Forkle
.
.
.
😳
Um yeeeaaaah.That basically affirms ruining a kid’s life to try to save the world (which might not need saving), killing people to promote your political stance, etc.
That’s another thing. There is no clear bad side and good side. The author tells us to root for the Black Swan, and to root against the injustice of this world. But we haven’t been shown any big injustice, and the Black Swan have yet to say what their moral code is or what they stand for.
Maybe the whole point is to say, “hey, everyone has good and bad in them!” But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call out what is good and what is bad.
We are told there are so many deep cracks in KotLC’s society! But we never call out any of those cracks and fix them.
And any moral statements the characters make are out of the blue, strangely post-modern despite the fact they’re supposed to be Tolkien’s elves, and unimportant to the scene at hand. Such as the crazy concern for animals and pollution, the vegetarianism, the “Ms. Vacker” title (which just felt weird?), the sudden attempted representation, etc.
Then… the character growth.
*rifles through notes*
*digs some more*
*checks the ancientest documents*
No, there’s nothing.
None of the characters have any meaning behind them. I genuinely can’t trace their arcs, other than maybe in the first book, and when Keefe becomes #dontgetcloseimighthurtyou.
Sophie, who as the heroine deserves the most development, is the same throughout. She has trust issues, an extremely self-deprecating sense of guilt (which every other character has, and which doesn’t make any sense whatsoever since she almost never causes anything), and a very selfish personality (albeit with a very selfless attitude which feels fake and even fools herself). But does she change? No. It’s almost as if the author doesn’t realize those flaws are there, because every character tells Sophie she’s amazing, and any character who doesn’t ends up a villain or eventually changing their opinion. Hence why I label her a Mary Sue. But I’ll get to that later.
Sometimes she’ll act like she’s changing, but we get to the next book, and she’s the same girl we knew.
What is “character growth” is the author changing a character not for storytelling reasons, but because she doesn’t like them the way they are and wants to add more drama. And that leads to the second big point, which is that the writing:
Tells the Story Badly
I have this saying. Good writing needs to please the readers – but also the writer. Otherwise it isn’t worth it.
Some stories are meant to please the readers, and leave the writer uninvested and tired out.
Some put the writer’s whims as top priority. And KotLC is on this extreme end of the spectrum.
I know I know, lots of people love KotLC! It wouldn’t be a huge series otherwise. And that’s their opinion, which they may hold to no matter what I say.
But if you really look at the series for what it is, it becomes all too clear that Shannon Messenger isn’t a good writer, and a lot of what she writes is just wish fulfillment or shiny new ideas soon thrown away. She is not considering what is best for the readers, but what pleases the readers. And I remind you, those are not the same things.
For one thing, the plots never improve. Because of the no-theme-no-character-development problem, there is no plot. Ever. I can’t even summarize these books when someone asks me to, because they are the opposite of coherent. Messenger is obviously a pantser. So many threads are dropped, and never picked up. An element will become super important, and I’m like, “WhErE DiD ThiS cOmE FrOm??” It’s just aimless wandering.
There is legitimately so much this series disregards when it comes to proven good structure. I know it isn’t a one-size-fits-all, but this is especially not cool – because KotLC wants to be an epic fantasy, but can’t even follow the simple promise-progress-payoff formula.
And a huge reason why all the wandering seems aimless?
The characters, collectively, have the IQ of my sister’s stuffed axolotl.
They are so unintelligent, I’m surprised they haven’t all died by now. They make so many bad decisions! Yeah, it’s supposed to symbolize the slow rotting of the apple of society and government? It’s gone way too far for that. The Council’s decisions are unbelievable. They lie for no apparent reason when it’s obvious it’ll kick them in the pants later, they can’t understand the Black Swan to save their lives, and make completely random laws that make no sense. The Pyro-person banning law? …Okay. Where did that come from? Hating twins? …Okay. Hating Talentless? …Okay. Forcing animals to be vegetarian? …Okay. Suddenly hating and distrusting this little eleven-year-old girl who hasn’t done anything and obviously doesn’t want to be dangerous, and spreading the fact of her existence far and wide? …OKAY.
I could believe these things if the ancient elf culture was to blame – because often that’s how prejudice starts, and it’s a strong root. But they never establish any history to explain these prejudices.
And it’s not just the Council, it’s everyone. Sophie, Fitz, Keefe, the supporting adults (especially the mentor characters). They never make logical decisions, or even have understandable emotions.
Keefe just left to pretend he’s part of the Neverseen, and Sophie’s like, “ohmygoshIhateyouItrustedyouhowcouldyou,” and I’m like… huh? It’s so obvious he’s spying for you guys. He’s risking his own life to help you. Why are you all hating on him all of a sudden??
Another thing. They talk about the world falling apart… and I don’t see anything happening.
The closest we’ve come to world war is a few local fires, and a gnome turning into a tree.
Yeah, there’s been threats. But other than the gnome sickness, we don’t see the villains planning anything or wanting anything specific. WHAT DO THESE VILLAINS WANT IN THE FIRST PLACE??
And a lot of this ridiculousness happens because the world is warped around certain priorities – such as Mary Sue drama.
Sophie’s beautiful, she’s unique, she’s smart, she has all the special abilities, and everyone loves her. She has three boys falling for her, and another hinted. But she doesn’t care, because she just wants to be normal, don’tcha know XD She is way too sweet at heart to want all the attention.
All that stuff isn’t necessarily the problem, But it is all super frustrating because Sophie is Messenger’s special, wish-fulfilling character.
Why do I know that?
Because eventually, Mary Sues, self-inserts, and special favorites die away with time. I’m in the fifth book, and it’s obvious Messenger has tired of Sophie, because Keefe is all the rage. He’s new, shiny, and so much more interesting – so we throw away previous best friends for him.
If the series goes for another ten books, I can promise you Keefe will fade with time. It happened to Dex. Fitz. Now Sophie.
Having a special-snowflake character isn’t always a bad thing… but it’s just gone too far.
*Tired sigh*
Additional stuff… dialogue is boring, info dumps happen all the time, the romance is the definition of cringe, and the emotions/descriptions are repetitive.
Honestly I feel sorry for Messenger. It’s got to be so stressful, trying to finish this monster of a series.
…
I could talk about this all day, and there IS more to talk about.
But there’s no point in beating a dead horse. Unless someone wants to argue with me about this, and unless I find something especially interesting to comment on in later books… this is it.
*Bows for the jeering crowd*
*Poof exits*
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
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