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Okay, y’all, I’ve got a dilemma on my hands.
To give you a bit of background information, my main character (Emeric Dertok) has recently come back into society after eight years of living the life of a hermit. He’s working for the King (Jornan), who charged him with the task of tracking down spies trying to sabotage the government. But as enters the saboteur’s group and learns more about their organization, he realizes that Jornan actually has hurt the kingdom in powerful ways.
So, I have a few things I’m not sure about. First (my biggest question): When is it okay to rebel against the government? I think about Paul, who lived under Nero and told us to respect the authorities, but is there a time in which it is okay to stand against the government? When is that time? And can anyone recommend books that deal with/address this topic?
Second, I can tell you without diving too deeply into the backstory that Emeric hurt Jornan in the past, and therefore Jornan’s behavior is ‘excused’ (in his own mind) because of said backstory. So (sorry if this comes out garbled ’cause I’m still trying to work it out myself) how do I address Emeric and Jornan’s personal issues without dumbing down the important question of respect toward authority? (Don’t worry. If you read that last paragraph about twenty times, I’m pretty sure you’ll get it 😉
Another way of putting it is that, because of Jornan’s past, he excuses his present actions. How do I deal with the conflict between Emeric – who caused the past – and Jornan while still addressing the message? I’m afraid that, while dealing with Emeric’s regret over the things he did to Jornan, I’ll be excusing Jornan’s actions as, “Oh, it’s okay. He was just a broken person who needed forgiveness. He wasn’t responsible for the things he did, but now that all the conflict is resolved, everything is fine and dandy and he can go back to being a perfect king again.” But he wasn’t a perfect king. I’m pretty sure (the probably-gonna-happen-spoiler-alert-of-a-pantser here) Jornan will die without ever recognizing how he’s wrong. And whether or not he dies, whether or not he changes, whether or not he continues making these horrible decisions, I still need to deal with this important question of whether or not it’s okay to defy the God-appointed government when that government is wrong.
I still feel like that was garbled, so if you got to this point, congrats 🙂 I’m just going to tag a whole bunch of people ’cause I don’t know who all would be interested in this sort of thing, but if you’re tagged, don’t feel obligated to say anything, and if I didn’t tag you, go ahead and chip in!
@kathleenramm @joy-caroline @elanor @abigail-m @precious-y @not-so-secret-secret-assassin @morgan @precious-y @sparksaraabbott11 @e-k-seaver @writerlexi1216 @lydia-s @nanisnook @lewilliams @relia @hallie-jean @anatra23 @iluvhim18 @jenwriter17 @keilah-h @nova21 @ariel-f @not-so-secret-secret-assassin @beth-darlene @buildsbygideon @daisy-torres @jodi-maile @when-i-see-the-kingdom @akbaer @zatara @elanor @seekjustice @erinramm @lucy @wyn-rose @millennium @kayleigh-idea @anne-of-lothlorien @christi-eaton @gretald @elishavet-pidyon @koshka @devastate-lasting @elfwing @e-k-seaver @trahia-the-minstrel @william-starkey @issawriter7 @anyone and everyoneI don’t have a whole lot to contribute currently because this is an issue I’ve been trying to figure out myself, but I’m very interested to read the discussion and I might weigh in later!
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
@faith-q So this is personal thoughts, as well as stuff drawn from advice from my awesome dad who’s super good at explaining these things XD I can’t promise my version will be very coherent as I’m exhausted, but here goes XD
Paul said to respect the authority.
Respect and obey are two very, very different things.
The believers were instructed by Paul to respect their pagan leader, but as we clearly know, they did not always obey them. They paid taxes because it did not go against the Bible or God’s commands. They did not worship pagan false gods or do anything associated with it, because it was a sin against the Lord.
If your character is told to do something against the laws laid down, and those laws don’t go against whatever religion or system you have in your world for right, then I think it would be fitting for him to confront it and disobey.
The only analogy coming to mind is husband/wife relationship XD: if a husband tells his wife she needs to steal, she is right in obeying God first, and saying no. If he does it anyways without her, it will hurt her and the family, but it will not be on her, she’s not responsible for his actions, only her own.
Disobedience to authority, even when not wrong, always hurts those involved and those connected to them and what is being changed. I’d suggest that if you do have him disobey the king, have his turmoil and doubt on whether he should, make it clear that it’s a tough decision for him.
As far as the relationship with the two characters, I’m a sucker for dynamics like that, and it sounds epic.
As far as how to portray it in a way that’s God-honoring…
we all mess up. We all do really stupid things at some point in our lives. Wrong is wrong, and two wrongs don’t make a right. There is no way for Jorgan to justify wrong behavior over something someone else did. We don’t control a lot, but we do control our choices. There’s a right and wrong way to respond to any situation.
I don’t know what happened so I’ll make a hypothetical example that’ll probably suck XD Say Jorgan tells Emeric to go kill innocent people who have done nothing.
Emeric can now choose how he’ll respond. He could:
A: attempt to lop off Jorgan’s head for being an unjust tyrant and if that fails, insult him and be as disrespectful as possible and maybe kill some other people instead before running off and probably causing a big problem for everyone.
B: Respectfully tell him he cannot do it and then if he can, leave, even though it will still cause problems.
either way it hurts both parties in their minds.
Sorry if that isn’t helpful, that’s all I got 🙂
I'm 'a homeschooler' because cookie-making writing artistic animal-whisperer isn't a job title
I agree with what @elfwing said about respecting the government, but always putting God’s commands first. As far as I understand it (which admittedly may not be much) we are to obey and respect our leaders, but we are not to obey anything which goes against the Bible or what God decrees. Think about the early Christians — they respected the emperor most of the time, but if they got caught and told to deny their faith or be thrown to the lions, what did they do? They got thrown to the lions. In essence, they rebelled against the government, or in another light, refused to obey the government — though presumably still in a respectful way, hopefully — because they couldn’t disobey God’s law. Obeying God, and obeying what is right, is important first and foremost.
I actually have a character in my book who has this exact issue in a sense, as well as a villain who has a similar backstory to yours.
*HUGE SPOILER FOR MY 1ST BOOK’S END (that I hope will help):*
In my book, I show through my character’s struggle that in the end he has to obey his conscience and what he knows is right even more than he has to obey the king’s commands. He knows it’s not right to kill an unarmed man, and he stands up for what he believes, even though it might cost him everything.
And the king has been hurt in the past, just like your villain. He’s not a villain in his own mind, he’s just getting what he feels is justice and vengeance on the people who hurt him long ago. He wants to protect his family, some of whom he lost to the people my protagonist stands up for at the end. But that doesn’t make what the king did in murdering people, selling them into slavery, and torturing people right.
*END SPOILER*
It’s okay to have a sympathetic backstory for your bad guy. That doesn’t excuse his actions or justify them, it just makes him more believable. My bad guy isn’t likely to admit to his mistakes or seek forgiveness by the end either, but the fact you can know he was once a kinder and better person, now twisted by bitterness and revenge because of the way he was hurt, makes the ending sad and powerful when it comes to him. Because you realise that if he’d chosen to forgive back then, things might have been different. But they’re not, and the things he did are indisputably cruel and horrible and wrong. Having others regret what they did to someone (as Emeric feels about Jornan) doesn’t make Jordan’s actions justified. Or right. Or okay. And Jornan choose to do those things, right? He could have chosen forgiveness. He could have chosen to try to be better than Emeric had been. But instead he chose to lash back and get revenge his own way — or at least that’s how you made it sound.😅 So Jordan’s actions are wrong no matter how much regret Emeric feels. Emeric feeling regret means that Emeric is growing as a character and becoming a better person, that doesn’t mean Jornan is, or that Emeric should cave to his guilt even when he knows taking a stand against Jornan is right.
Sorry. This is kinda me trying to sort out my thoughts. My end result is this: I think it’s good for Emeric to feel regret, and for Jornan to have a good backstory with him. That adds a whole level of weight and struggle to the story that will make it sooo good. But I also think that Jornan’s backstory highlights how Emeric’s changed, rather than excusing Jornan. Like I said, Jornan made a choice. There’s always a choice. And Emeric choosing to help the spies even though it means disobeying the king — what does Emeric’s conscience tell him is right? I think you’ll find your answer there.
Anyway, hope this helps somehow.😊
The end of a story, a beautiful picture; a feeling of longing yet hope~
That’s my wish to create.- Rank: Eccentric Mentor
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First of all, your story sounds amazing, and second of all, excellent question. I, for one, love to talk about (character) rebellions against the government, so I’m excited to share my thoughts. XD Hope they help.
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God” (Romans 13:1).
Like with all Scripture, it’s important to understand this instruction in its correct context. Here are the two main points we can draw from this.
1) Some of us, at first glance, might think it strange that Paul states all authority has been instituted by God. Because to look at the lives of rulers like the Herods and the Caesars? They did extremely evil things that were clearly NOT from God. Then why would Paul say they were instituted by God? The point he was making was not that the government was godly, but that God is sovereign over everything, including the government and its authorities, and God is the higher power we should really be looking to. God instructs that His people not stir up controversy or cause disruptions simply for the sake of doing so, and since God is the sovereign authority, placed OVER the government, we should obey His laws to be stewards of peace and love. Part of being a steward of peace and love is respecting authority and not being rebellious for the sake of being rebellious. That’s point number one.
2) With that being said, there is a time to stand up and speak out against injustice. As is often said, God is a God of peace and love, but He is also a God of justice. On that same vein, His people should be a people of peace and love, but also a people of justice. If there is injustice and corruption in the government, there’s a time to speak out. Paul instructed the church to obey the authorities, yet he himself directly and boldly disobeyed authority in order to obey God. Some examples: Paul repeatedly broke Jewish law by associating with pagans, eating unclean foods, and yes, by preaching Jesus as the Messiah. This resulted in his being punished time and time again in the synagogues, but still he did not stop. He also disobeyed the Roman government by teaching that Caesar was nothing but an earthly ruler and NOT a god – that Jesus was the true King. We could accurately say that Paul was truly a chronic law-breaker. However. He did it to obey the higher authority, which is God. He did not do it for no reason – not simply to make a stir, to draw more attention to himself, or to cause meaningless disruptions. He did it because it was the morally right thing to do – had he gone along with what the Roman or Jewish laws ordered him to do in those circumstances, he would have been sinning. Think of Acts 5:29 – “But Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than men.'” God wants His people to be loving, but He does not want them to be doormats – there is a time to speak up. Jesus Himself disobeyed human law many times to do what was right in His Father’s eyes. In doing so, He avoided sinning.
Look at the lives of martyrs such as St. Polycarp, St. Blandina, St. Ignatius, etc. All of them disobeyed the emperor in order to obey God. They held fast to their faith and died in unimaginably horrific ways for doing so. And because they did not deny Christ, He will not deny them on the day of resurrection (2 Timothy 2:11-12).
I’m pretty sure you figured out a long time ago what I’m trying to say by all this rambling, so yeah. Short and simple, it is okay to defy the government when obeying it would place a Christian in the position of disobeying God.
Hope this made sense! Good luck on your story.
@joy-caroline
You said that so much better than me, lol😂
The end of a story, a beautiful picture; a feeling of longing yet hope~
That’s my wish to create.Regarding the government question, I think I’m agreeing with everyone so far. We should obey the government as far as we’re able–that is, so long as the government is not demanding we do something that violates God’s law.
Other times when one might want to disobey the government I think come down to Christian liberty. For example, the American Revolution. The colonists were upset that the British were taxing them without representation. They saw themselves as Englishmen who were not being given their due rights. They petitioned Parliament several times, but Parliament didn’t listen. Then they went to the king, but he didn’t listen either. They were reluctant to break away from England, but when they were repeatedly ignored, they decided that it would be better for them to be independent. And then the war happened to secure their independence.
I’m not bashing the American Revolution or anything, but I firmly believe that there were Christians on both sides of that war. Now I believe taxation with representation is an important right, but I don’t think it’s a necessary right and I certainly don’t believe being denied it impairs one’s ability to follow God. So I think in matters when obeying the government doesn’t impair one’s ability to follow God, we should obey the government. And in other matters, like dealing with a tyrannical government, it is more a matter of Christian liberty whether to resist or not. But in those matters it should be our last choice to rebel.
You might be interested in investigating the “lesser magistrate doctrine”. Basically, if the higher magistrate is doing something he shouldn’t, you go to the lower magistrates under him and it’s their responsibility to choose whether to go along with him or not. So it’s not just private citizens causing anarchy. I read a book about it this year called The Magdeburg Confession–it was written during the Protestant Reformation when the Holy Roman Emperor was banning Protestantism. The Protestants wrote this confession to the lower magistrates to remind them that they have the power to disobey the emperor and keep their states Protestant. If you do read it, just know that the first half is pretty much laying down the Protestants’ doctrinal beliefs and it’s not until the second half that the lower magistrate thing is actually addressed. And, per the times, the Protestants hurl some nasty insults at the Catholics. So just be warned.
Also I love that the topic “When is it okay to defy the government?” is in a writing forum XD.
When is it okay to rebel? Good question, and here’s my questionably good answer(which is basically what everyone else has said. Those were great answers, ya’ll!). When government goes against what is right or godly, we have to speak up. To go along with evil is a sin, or as the Word says, “to him who knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, it is sin”. But how do we ‘rebel’? I have a few thoughts.
David, the Three(four) Hebrew Children, and the apostles are all great examples of rightous people under corrupted governments. David still respects Saul even when he is seeking David’s life. Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah are captives in a pagan land. Placed in prominent positions, they are persecuted by other officials culminating in twice with laws to force them to worship something other than God. Daniel still prays, and his friends don’t bow to the image. In doing so, the defy the kings Nebuchadnezzar and Darius. They are very respectful when questioned, but they make it clear they obey a Higher King (“…be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve your God’s, nor worship the golden image…” Daniel 3:18). (Okay, sorry, I like their Hebrew names.)
In other words, it is right to defy authority when they defy God, but always in a way that glorifies Jesus. David wouldn’t hurt Saul because he respected the fact that God had anointed Saul and only had the right to administer judgement.
A good modern example is where a child is saved, but has to live with parents who aren’t. This is a hard situation, and sometimes the parents will tell their child to do something sinful. Now, the Bible says it is also a sin to disobey one’s parents, so what is there to do? key is respect. The child obeys their parents in every other way.
As for your characters, they sound wonderful. I totally agree with what the others said. Your back stories of mutual mistakes can add so much depth. In one of my books, it is a past mistake of a king that harbors bitterness in an official, and that bitterness turns the official into a traitor bent on destroying the last remaining remnants of the truth.
It’s a well known phrase among apostolic ministers that ‘hurt people hurt people’, that rings true in antagonists.
Anyway, that was a LONG ramble. Sorry, I hope there’s something in it that helps. 😉
You have listened to fears, child. Come, let me breathe on you... Are you brave again? -Aslan
Thanks for starting this conversation! All I can say is that you guys are great and I’ve just learned so much right now reading through all your responses.
I don’t have much to add, since I think you guys have covered everything that I would have said. I think I’ll just address the topic of Jornan and Emeric and the personal issues between them, as best I can, anyway.
It sounds like Emeric did something to Jornan that then made Jornan think it would be okay to do bad things in return. But clearly, Jornan did things he should not have done. We’re not supposed to answer sin with sin, and if Emeric did something wrong to Jornan, that does not excuse Jornan’s behavior. Context is important, of course, but it is never right to do wrong to someone just because they did wrong to you. Jornan is clearly in the wrong here, and just because someone did something wrong to him doesn’t excuse his actions.
You can still describe Jornan’s behavior as wrong. You can still describe Emeric’s behavior as wrong, too. Both of them are wrong, but now, one of them is choosing to do the right thing, and one of them is still choosing to do the wrong thing. You can have it be a situation where Emeric still respects Jornan’s authority but sees the actions Jornan is taking as wrong, if they are still wrong. If Jornan is not fulfilling his job as an honorable, peacekeeping ruler, then Emeric must see the injustice Jornan is causing and he must do something about it. Emeric can still feel guilty about the wrong he did to Jornan but Emeric can also recognize that he himself is no longer doing that wrong and that he can now choose to do the right thing, even if it means standing up to Jornan’s unjust authority.
I hope that was helpful in some way! Best of luck with your story. It sounds like you’re dealing with some complex issues that will be epic to read about. It honestly made me think a little of the Moses-Pharaoh dynamic, where Moses came back to stop Pharaoh from mistreating the Jews. The Dreamworks Prince of Egypt movie might be a good one to watch for inspiration about this character dynamic.
Wow, everyone has such good, solid answers. All I can think of probably doesn’t apply to your story, so I’ll be brief.
There are christians and missionaries in Islamic countries where all other religions are illegal.
Are those christians rebelling? In a sense yes.
Are they actively overthrowing those governments? Not exactly.
Are they wrong? No.
Sometimes upholding and spreading truth runs against this fallen world’s government.
First Grand Historian of Arreth and the Lesser Realms (aka Kitty)
Fork the Gork- Rank: Eccentric Mentor
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Lol thanks. But I think you did fine! 😉
This was cool to read through. All of these are some great points.
Emeric and Jornan. Hhhmmmmmm. If I were writing this kind of situation, honestly I would bring in a new character to help snap Emeric out of his guilt, and remind him of the truth so that he’s able to do what’s right and apply all that was said here.
(also I love those names)
This topic made me think of primarily one thing,
Back in COVID 19, in 2020 my church was advised to be shut down by the government for who knows how long. After prayer and consideration, the pastors and deacons at my church decided God was calling them to wait it out a little longer. After a couple weeks, they were lead to temporarily shift the congregation to another larger place to worship and preach, within COVID guidelines at the time. They respectfully saw the importance of physical health and spiritual health, and did what they could to honor both the government and God. But they put God first and waited for His response.
So, there you go–if any of that helped or not, I hope it did!
Lol, also when this covid complications hit my family watched God’s Not Dead (1-2 not movie 3) the film and my sis read the book as a good example of what respecting authority but putting God first looks like.
Well… I’d say everyone else here has given great answers.
I’d say the same thing. With your characters actions if he messes up be sure to portray the wrong as wrong.
Again with the government and any authority we are commanded to obey them unless it goes against the Bible. And when we can’t obey still do it respectfully. Like @elishavet-pidyon ‘s example of Daniel and his friends or David.
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf
Okay, so I’m probably just going to repeat what everyone else has already said since I only skimmed a few of the replies. yeah, I’m lazy. 😂
But I TOTALLY get your question. This is something I’ve been wondering about a lot lately actually. And actually, in my novel, Heir to His Crown, there is a rebellion group that my main character joins to reclaim this crown that was stolen.
I do believe there is a difference though between respect and rebelling. For instance, if there is a law in place that does not go against God’s Word, the Bible is clear that you should follow it. We are not to live unlawful and rebellious in that term. HOWEVER, God’s Word trumps any of man’s laws, and like, let’s say a government was saying it’s now illegal to worship Jesus. Well, we would be rebelling the government but it would be wrong not to do so. I like how John Cooper, lead singer of Skillet, has been calling for a “righteous rebellion.” Not to rebel against what’s good and just, but to rebel against the standards society, the world, and laws governments are putting that go against God’s word. Does that make sense? Probably not. But for what’s currently happening in our world today, I can respect the fact that God has allowed our government to be as it is, but I don’t respect all the choices said government is making.
As for Emeric and Jornan’s personal issues, I don’t think you have too much to worry about. Showing Emeric’s regret over what he did to Jornan doesn’t automatically impress the readers that it was okay for what Jornan did. It was clear in this situation, both characters were in the wrong. You gave the readers a way to sympathize with the antagonist, but Jornan would still be viewed as the antagonist. By showing that Emeric forgives Jornan, therefore indicates that Jornan did something that needed forgiveness because he was wrong.
I’m sorry if I didn’t answer that second question correctly, I had a hard time understanding it, lolIn conclusion
wow, THAT sounded a bit too professional for me XDthe best advice I can ever offer is to pray for God to give you wisdom and discernment for situations like these. People will offer you a million different advice on this perspective but what matters is what GOD says, and if you ask Him to teach you, He will give you the wisdom and knowledge you need. 🙂 Hoped this helped!!! <3333 And GOOD LUCK with writing!!!!!!God gives His hardest battles to His strongest soldiers.
TeenWritersNook.comThat was a REALLY great example you gave, Anatra!!! (And I LOOOVE God’s Not Dead!!!!)
God gives His hardest battles to His strongest soldiers.
TeenWritersNook.com
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