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I will agree with a lot of what you said but….
I dislike the specific villain you mentioned and felt that character and ark were badly handled. That is one of the main reasons I quit KOTLC because I felt that the plot got bad after around the middle. I just felt that it stagnated and that Shannon Messanger didn’t do the type of series book where the hero fails or basically fails right because the story progression was bad. I also didn’t feel that specific villain was well written in terms of plot (I have seen a good number of villains of that archetype as it is one of the more common dark fantasy villains (it also works better in dark fantasy because the character is usually more twisted and evil). I think the other problems with me and KOTLC were Mr. Forkle and (very unpopular opinion here) Keefe. However, this is not the place to talk about that.
I get your point though and totally agree with it in terms of villains.
I will say however with your last point about the lines between good and evil what exactly do you mean?
Through darkness,
light shines brightest@otherwordly-historian yeaaa a lot of ppl on KP don’t like KOTLC but me and my friends LOVE IT
so no hate to y’all for not! To each their own (
but Keefe is my Fictional Crush and I absolutely love him so plz no Keefe hate around me or I will have to rant just tbh XD XD XD)As for the last part:
Being Christian Writers, by the end of ours book/series or whatever we are writing, we need to make sure that the Moral of our story got through.
The despite the darkness/evil, Light was Shown.
The darkness is there to show the Light not vice versa.
That being said, my main thing is, just making sure that by the end of it your reader isn’t questioning: “Wait, was what the villain did The Right Thing?”
Because No.
It was not.
We should not glorify the things that villains do. We can’t glorify abuse, killing, etc.
Lines get blurred and skewed. It happens in life, this is natural. But in the end the reader should be able to see where what the villain did or how they approached things was wholly wrong.
Using the KOTLC book as an example,
As the series goes further and further, the systems of the “Good guys” are continuing to crumble and your learning just more of how bad it is. And your just like “How is this going to be fixed”
And the villains points?
Make sense. Because they’re pretty much the same as the heroes.
And that is: Stop biases and Prejudice, change the system, get rid of all the things that hurting innocent people.
Issue is, the villains are killing people, manipulating people, experimenting on people, to do this.
The heroes are trying to defeat the villains, and work with the ones who set up the system in the first place to remove it….
But…it’s a mess.
And that’s why I’m kinda afraid that Shannon is going to continue confusing readers.
Because it is overtly confusing. Because the heroes don’t win.
At this point, I really would be okay with a Dues Ex Machina because without it? The only way to achieve the goal that all the readers want (No bias, etc) would be to follow the Villains plan….
and that is not right!! So idk what Shannon is doing….
(I mainly love the series btw because of the characters XD. And Keefe. I’m a character girl sooo I don’t even always read for plot….)
I may have just rambled and made u more confused but I hope this answered ur question a bit
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebFon’t worry about me giving you any Keefe hate. I understand what it is like when not everyone agrees with you on a character (though most people including my sister do like Keefe). I just liked Fitz and Sophie more and felt like the potential for that relationship and the story it could tell was being sacrificed for the typical lovable goofball instead of having Sophie and Fitz work out their differences and grow as characters.
Also I probably should have been more clear on my question (sorry). I was more asking about your opinion on moral grey characters and stuff. I agree that we need to make things clear but in terms of right and wrong but I was more asking in terms of your opinion on moral ambiguity. Basically should there be clear cut good guys and bad guys or should we leave that more up to our readers and make the distinction more in the actions alone (we portray sin as sin and good things as good and let our readers determine what they think of our characters actions)?
Through darkness,
light shines brightestAlso is there any real point in reading the last KOTLC book (like does it just continue to kind of dully spiral). I probably won’t get to it for a while (like until summer break) but I was going to read it when we thought it was the last one just to finish the series but now that I know it isn’t (I looked at some spoilers) I am pretty sure I am not. I was just wondering since you said you really liked them.
Through darkness,
light shines brightest@otherwordlyhistorian since you don’t like it much and haven’t been keeping up with most of it I wouldn’t.
I read it because I am invested and I do love it, but also I love Keefe and the Sokeefe stuff and all the charries and I want to know how it ends.
If that’s not pulling you in or a big deal for you then I wouldn’t suggest trying them again tbh.
Ahhh I gotcha!!
Morally grey characters? UMM YES! Those are great!
While some would probably be like “But how can Christian write morally grey characters?” It’s simple really…
There are morally grey people in the world.
Now they don’t always stay that way (most of the time they do) but not every time.
But like you said as long as we make things clear in terms of right and wrong (at least by the end of the books/series or close to it and don’t overly confuse) then morally grey characters can actually, IMO, be some of the best and most powerful ways to promote and show the Light in your story.
Because sometimes it’s in those characters, who are so close to tipping on either side of the scales, that can truly show the purity that is Goodness.
We root for the morally grey characters, and IMO there should be a balance of Clear cut villains and morally grey villains, (or antagonists, or anti-heroes, whatever you’re writing)
The reason being, People root for morally grey villains.
They want them to come through in the end.
Sometimes to be redeemed. And when they aren’t?
It hurts. And that can showcase the realness of things, but it also shows it’s not too late for us to turn away and tip the scale to the other side.
And when they are redeemed?
That speaks for itself.
My antagonist is morally grey. You may have heard of her going around the forum, her name is Corvina.
She an MC, and she starts out Morally grey, and as the series continues, slowly tips to the side of good.
But at the end it seems like she completely tips back to the other side.
So I luv morally grey characters, and I like clearcut villains (though please give them good motive too and not just evil for the sake of evil…unless It fits your story somehow)
and…this might’ve been another ramble that did not answer ur question again buuuut yea XD
also one example of a morally grey villain, IMO, idk if you have ever seen or read anything with Batman, but Harley Quinn (and in some, few versions,) The Joker.
there are also Morally Grey heroes of course but that’s a different topic XD
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSeb@godlyfantasy12
ThanksI just thought of something. (On the topic of morally grey characters)
what is your opinion on books that only contain morally grey characters. (As in a book we’re almost all the central characters would either fall into the catalogue ry of morally grey or villain)
I don’t know if you’ve read anything like that because it is generally found in darker multi pov narratives but I would be interested to see your opinion.
Also what is your opinion on reverse redemption arcs, evilification arcs?
Mm dunno if I’d want to read a book with all morally grey characters to be quite honest. I think there should always be a mix, or at least a few sporadic clear cut good characters spread through, because I think for me it would just be too heavy to read something where you never know where someone is going to fall/land.
As for reverse redemption arcs, or evilification, I assume what your asking about is Corruption Arcs?
A corruption arc: follows the shift of a character from moral strength (or even moral neutrality) to moral weakness. As with all character arcs, the key is to show the character’s gradual change over time when it comes to their actions and decisions
I think these are a great tool in the writer’s belt. I like them.
And in reality, every clear-cut villain, every one, has a corruption arc.
Unless they just started from a child as a total jerk…and even then they still have a corruption arc.
How did they get to the point they’re at now? Were they raised that way? Children always have an air of innocence, so what stole that? Teaching? Abuse? A trouble lifestyle?
Every clear cut villain has a corruption arc in their past.
Morally Grey characters? They may have some corruption in their arcs if they’re leaning towards the bad side, but their arcs are unfinished, IMO, thus they do not have a Corruption Arc or Redemption Arc just yet. Morally Grey characters remain Morally Grey until their Arcs are completed.
Now Ik this forum is about villains, but I’m sure we all know Corruption arcs can happen in side characters (that are large characters in the stories), MCs, the hero/heroine, etc.
And sometimes it’s the most painful thing when they do, but it’s also realistic at times. If portrayed correctly.
It has to be shown right, of course, and I’m not against giving a side character or whoever a corruption Arc. While I can’t think of any off the top of my head, I know I’ve seen some who have corruption arcs.
Think characters who betray their teammates, and they don’t turn back to them in the end. They betrayed because they really did side with the enemy. Those characters had a corruption arc. It was slow. Gradual. And it hurts.
And yea, I’m also not against giving your heroine or hero a corruption arc if that’s where your going.
But I will say this on that note!
I know it’s hard, but somehow, someway, you’ve gotta find a way to still show God in it all. If you can’t do that, then scrap it, try something else, or pray about it. And Ik I keep coming back to this but that’s because it’s important to me that I make my motives clear and don’t confuse anyone. I want my stories to help others and uplift, but that being said, reality is also shown thru books, but in reality there is always hope.
ALSO! Since this is a villains forum, I’ll leave you with this:
The Villain is always the hero of their own story.
So you have given a hero a corruption arc, because in each individual story, the other character is the “Hero”. The main character.
In their life, they are the ones in the game, having to live and die, and go through everything. They’re not living in someone else’s body, after all.
Though you may be writing from only your “Hero’s” perspective, in the mind’s eye of every other character, they are the main character in their own story.
and yes Ik my posts are long XD
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebI will have to disagree with some of your points because I personally don’t feel that it is necessary to have clear-cut lines between good guys and bad guys. I think that as long as you show which actions characters take that are bad as bad and the actions they take that are good are good it is not necessary to have your characters be clear-cut or make your villains clear-cut evil.
Specifically, in relation to villains, I feel that when the villains do the right thing or do actions that we commonly associate with being good (without some evil or twisted psyche behind them) it can help to humanize the villains and ask our readers and protagonists interesting questions. This is not necessary or possible with all villains (like what @thearcaneaxiom said) (nor is it something only used in redemtion arc villains).
Through darkness,
light shines brightestAlso, don’t worry about your post length. I feel that it is better to explain stuff in a long post than not explain it well in a short post.
Through darkness,
light shines brightestAh yes I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying (or I said it in a not clear way my bad lol!)
I agree on that with villains! I was merely saying, I think there should at least be a few clear cut good guys in a story, just to keep a balance, and this does not mean they have to be perfect.
Clear cut doesn’t mean boring, just to make sure we’re clear.
and Morally Grey isn’t every character under the sun.
Not everyone should be morally grey.
Plus that isn’t always realistic anyway. There’s usually always someone trying their best to be good, wether a side character, etc.
(but there’s usually not always someone trying to be coherently evil so making someone just clear cut evil or a villain is just…not always a great idea, unless it’s supposed to be ironic)
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebI can agree.
@everyone
Also for anyone still reading this:
What are some villains you have read or seen (and have not already been mentioned) that you think we could learn from?
Through darkness,
light shines brightestWhat are some villains you have read or seen (and have not already been mentioned) that you think we could learn from?
Fine, I won’t mention Zuko again, starting now.
I think it depends on what you mean by that, because I think that any well written villain can be learned from. On face value at least, you can see where their choices and actions led them, and take that as a word of caution. Also seeing the kind of lies they can tell, and the impact of a well told deception, and learn some things to watch out for. I’m going to use an unlikely example, Sauron. He is indeed the most classic unredeemable big bad that can’t be related to. That being said, there was a time in his life where he could have been. Sauron was one of the Maiar, like Gandalf and Galadriel to name a few. He original joined Morgoth in singing discord into Arda, and served him as his second. However as Morgoth was imprisoned, Sauron sought to change his ways in Middle Earth. He saw death, disease, and murder in Middle Earth, and he perceived that the Valar were doing nothing about it. Thus he came to the conclusion that he needed to take it unto himself to be the one to save Middle Earth from itself, and he eventually took on the forceful tact, but also when the subtle route as well. He thought that if he could control all the rulers and lands of Middle Earth, he could enforce a perfect law in which non would murder, cheat, or steal. He became a master deceiver, stealing both the hearts of elf’s and men alike to serve different purposes. The men in particular, he gave nine rings of power to, and stole their free will. Eventually he came to the point that he murdered, cheated, and stole, in the name of stopping those things. Eventually he came to the point where it was no longer about enforcing a perfect law, but it really was just the power he lusted after.
We can learn from this the ideas that we cannot play God. Sauron wanted to be a savior, he wanted to bring peace to a corrupt world through perfection. We can learn the vitality of free agency (free will), if you take away ones ability to make their own choices, they lose the ability to be human, as was the extreme literal case of the Nine. We learn of the pitfalls of hypocrisy, and we learn some tricks some use to bend our will into ours through many different methods.
(Sorry if I got any facts wrong, or missed any key points on Sauron. I’ve studied the ages, but am yet to actually read the Silmarillion.)
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
*is now stalking this forum for tips*
HMMMM
Well, I haven’t studied villains a lot.
Personally, I prefer if the villains get redeemed…
But if they must choose to be unredeemable, then:
1. They gotta be relatable, and make the MC or readers see themselves in the villain. (like, a possible reflection)
2. Don’t do them like Loki.
*runs from all the KP Loki fans*I was very frustrated at Marvel for teasing me with his possible redemption multiple times, but he still dies unredeemed. I don’t like being invested in characters with no hope, but that’s a personal preference. *stops before Loki rants continue*3. Let them win sometimes, if not most of the time.
4. Whatever evil they’re doing, must be portrayed as evil. Especially if they’re likable, I’ve noticed it has a tendency not to be addressed/not realistic consequences to their actions. (this goes for redeemed villains too)
…I thought I had more than this, if I think of more I’ll add some later…
"...I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain..."
(Part of) Isaiah 45:19Great question!! So, y’all have already said a lot, so sorry if I repeat anything! 🙂
First of all, I think villains need to be relatable. Now, I know that most of us won’t be doing everything in our power to oppose someone, even to the point of hiring henchmen and destroying things… (XD) but we need to make them relatable. Give them a backstory that most can relate. Everyone experience pain at some point or another, and so does the villain.
Secondly, let them love. Villains are only human. (Unless they aren’t… but that’s in special cases… XD) They still love something or someone. If they still love something or someone, they will be relatable. Everyone loves something. Whether that be a person, a hobby, a sport, etc. When we see a villain that shows love to someone or something, they will be more relatable.
They also need to think they are in the right. After all, why would they invest their time and energy into something that they don’t believe in?
Good villains also need a chance for redemption. Give them that chance to redeem themselves. It is their choice if they take it or not.
Also… please do not make them dull. Dumb or unknowing villains are extremely annoying. (Besides Doctor Doofenshirmtz from Phineas & Ferb. [Not even sure if I spelled his name right XD] He’s a special case. Lol.) But when the villain is not smart, they aren’t interesting and we don’t care for them whatsoever.
Now, if the villain is their just to be evil and to oppose the protagonist, you may not want to make them relatable. Sometimes, some villains are best when they aren’t relatable. Like Emperor Palpatine.
Last of all, if you want people to even… like… your villain, Lokify him. (Lol. New word y’all. Lokify) That meaning, make him or her, smart, savvy, and have a sense of humor. They are always the best that way.
Some of the things above I did learn from KP articles. (Thank you KP!!) So it’s not all originally my thoughts.
But that is what I think, and I believe a lot more could be added to that anyway. 🙂
And I agree with everyone else. They are evil and you can’t justify that. You can’t compromise the truth. The darkness is only there to make the light shine even brighter! ⭐️
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
For your second question: Um, I agree with @arcaneaxiom in that any villain can be learned from. Even terrible villains I could learn from what specifically to avoid when writing my villains, so…yeah.
But, I’ll give you a list of villains, since that’s what you’re asking for (I think).
WARNING: PAST THIS POINT ARE SPOILERS FOR BOOKS/SERIES; PROCEED WITH CAUTION.Here are some, in no particular order.
#1. Any villain from The Zion Chronicles (I’ve read up to book seven, so far), except for Herschel.
#2. Nobody (yes, that is his name) from Story Thieves. I’m including him because I really liked how mysterious he was, and the fact that he won, several times. However, I don’t like how good and evil were portrayed in those books, or his backstory.
#3. The villains from the fourth and fifth books of the Million Dollar Mysteries series are great.
#4. The Count of Monte Cristo. This has the corruption arc that you’re talking about, but…if I’m remembering correctly he gets redeemed.
#5. The bad guy from The World’s Greatest Detective.
#6. Frankenstein’s monster from the book Frankenstein.
#7. Galina from a crazy time-travel series that I don’t recall the name of right now…
#8. Jadis from The Chronicles of Narnia.
#9. Syndrome from The Incredibles.
#10. The explorer in Up.
Aaaand that’s all that I can think of right now.
"...I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain..."
(Part of) Isaiah 45:19
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