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So I have seen some of you guys talking about villians in The Chat Chat and it got me thinking.
What Makes A Good Villain?
So I personally have some opinions on this and I know this varies on who you are but I was just kind of wanting to collect input from across the Kingdom of Pen. So, (and not to sound to dramatic), Let discussion comminse!
Through darkness,
light shines brightestAlso feel free to tag people I didn’t really know who to tag.
Through darkness,
light shines brightest@freedomwriter76 @thearcaneaxiom @princesachronicle22 @godlyfantasy12 @lightoverdarkness6 @folith-feolin @esther-c @gwyndalf-the-wise @felicity @whalekeeper
I think you guys may be interested.
Through darkness,
light shines brightest- Rank: Chosen One
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@otherworldlyhistorian. OOH, great topic idea!!! 😉
Villains have somehow become some of my favorite characters to write…but they never become my favorite characters, unless they get a redemption arc, of course.
In my opinion, these are a few things that I think make a good (and complex) villain:
- They think they’re doing the right thing. (what makes a villain more complex than making them think they’re doing the right thing for humanity!?)
- They have twisted thinking/methods. (What I mean is that they maybe have a good “reason” for doing what they’re doing, maybe even something we can relate to, (like peace, equality, etc.) but the means they use to accomplish that goal is what makes them evil)
- A deep past. (it doesn’t necessarily have to be tragic or otherwise sad and depressing, but in my opinion, your villain’s past needs to be just as fleshed out as your protagonist’s)
- They have control. (they’re not afraid of what’s coming, because they’re in control and because of that, they don’t have to fear what the protagonist could do, because the villain already knows they they’ll win. And then you can really show when something isn’t good for them when they get ruffled.)
- They’re intelligent. (I don’t know about anyone else, but, except for a couple lackeys, a stupid villain absolutely gets on my nerves. XD)
Anywho…that’s just a few of my thoughts. 😉😂
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I would probably say to make them human (unless they’re not) or in other words realistic. They can have feelings too not just be heartless and cruel.
@freedomwriter76
I can agree with a lot of what you said. Also, I totally get what you mean about writing villains (I would disagree with the redemption arc being the only way I fall in love with them (more on that later)). The only one of your points I kind of disagree with is 4. I personally feel that sometimes villains without control can be really good too (sometimes control is the thing they want).I will say that sometimes when we think of villains we forget about their humanity. That is definitely one thing I think makes a good villain (something you kind of touched on). Personally, I feel like it makes a villain so much better when they are relatable in some way or another (another thing you touched on). One thing you didn’t touch on as much that isn’t necessary for (or possibly in) all great villain formulas but I feel that villains are better if they have qualities that are commonly thought of as heroic (ie: cares for their family or has loyalty).
Through darkness,
light shines brightestPersonally, I don’t think there’s any one thing that makes a good villain, if there was, then we would all do that one thing, then it wouldn’t be good anymore. Many try to suggest that a good villain is a complex villain, someone with struggles trying to enforce what they see as right. I do agree that this is indeed, one kind of villain that is a great one if done well, but it’s not by far what makes a good villain, especially sense it can be done really poorly. Sometimes a story really does just need a true big bad who really is just the most flat unredeemable character. I think some epic examples we can look at are in Avatar the Last Airbender. Zuko is a complex character, he’s sorta the villain in the first season, but you slowly learn throughout the show his true internal struggle, and his arc is the best that I’ve ever read or seen. In the first season at least, he’s the villain that just wants to capture Aang, to restore his honor. It’s far more beautiful complexity beyond that, but that’s what the show needed for now. Then we meet Azula, she’s a fascinating villain. What makes her a good villain is her truly terrifying nature through her calm calculative emotional lack. Her perfectionism, how she dangles her friends and enemies alike by strings. Her arc, though tragic, is equally beautifully done, and just as fascinating as Zuko’s. Then we meet their dad, Ozai, the Firelord. At first glace, he doesn’t have any complexity, and this is true to an extent, he is the unredeemable flat big bad. That being said, what makes him a good villain is his connection to his children, which wasn’t a good one. He used and abused both of them, making them into what they were, their arcs, are deeply tied to his, because of them, we see the monster that he is. All three of them compliment each other in such a tragic but beyond well done way. I didn’t do any of these characters justice in this small paragraph, but they are some of the best villains I’ve seen. (If you haven’t noticed, I’m basically advertising Avatar for those who haven’t watched it.) Each of them makes a great villain for different reasons, though they are deeply tied together, individually they would still hold up without any lack of good writing.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Yuuus, I love the villains in Avatar: The Last Airbender! Especially Zuko – although I think everyone who’s ever watched that show loves Zuko.
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@sarafini
Completely agree. I feel we can sometimes forget this because it is easier for our heroes to fight villains like Emporer Palpatine than ones who make us sympathize with them or make us question the actions of the heroes.
Through darkness,
light shines brightest- Rank: Chosen One
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The only one of your points I kind of disagree with is 4. I personally feel that sometimes villains without control can be really good too (sometimes control is the thing they want).
Oh yes, I do agree. I think it really depends on the villain, which is why I love what @thearcaneaxiom said. Every villain is different, and as I said, it is only my personal opinion on what I like and think makes a good villain. 🙂
I will say that sometimes when we think of villains we forget about their humanity.
Agreed.
That is definitely one thing I think makes a good villain (something you kind of touched on). Personally, I feel like it makes a villain so much better when they are relatable in some way or another (another thing you touched on). One thing you didn’t touch on as much that isn’t necessary for (or possibly in) all great villain formulas but I feel that villains are better if they have qualities that are commonly thought of as heroic (ie: cares for their family or has loyalty).
Oh, yes! I didn’t touch up on that because I didn’t think about it, but I do agree that there needs to be at least some good in our villains…though I will say that I think some villains will have more of those heroic qualities than others. 😉
But I wholeheartedly agree!
@otherworldyhistorian
Great question! It depends on what specifically your asking, but I’ll just explain what I like to see in a villian
My favorite villians are the ones that have interesting thought processes. Do they beleive they are doing good? Have they been manipulated? Are they corrupted somehow? And just showing personality and really getting into their heads.
One of my favorite villains of all time is Azula from Avatar The Last Airbender. And she is vicious and extremly calculating, despite only being 14 years old. I just think it’s interesting seeing how she thinks and is always using fear and manipulation, even on her best friends and pinpoints any weakness. But we also see moments of when she tries to be sympathetic and normal
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love never fails. -1 Corinthians
And guess what? His is eternal (:LOL, Yes, Zuko is the best! We love him, and I want to give him a hug sometimes.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I definitely agree with you on it depending on the story and villain as to what exactly makes them best.
I definitely favour the complex villains and the villains that we can sympathize with as a reader.
Through darkness,
light shines brightestYeah, I agree, and that’s Zuko and Azula for you, but I still think that Ozai is a great villain. Though he may not be able to be sympathized with, I think the plain big bad is underrated, though considered cheesy in a lot of writing, Ozai is the pure bad done right. I think that’s probably the biggest thing is doing the character right, this is true for all writing, but when you follow some trope, you can do it really well, or really poorly. I tend to favor the more complex villain too, but I still feel like there aren’t enough pure bads done well to actually be appreciated, though this again can be applied to almost every trope.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Villains that make me feel for them, our and simple, are my favorites.
now I sometimes do get mixed up when thinking of Villains because my brain thinks of those who might not be classified as Villains, but antagonists or Anti-heroes (which is an entirely different argument) and so I do get a bit turned upside down due to just how my mind immediately goes to those, but wether you’re dealing with those or villains outright, the simple rule for me is:
Make me feel for them. Make me somehow understand.
Or don’t.
Sometimes I won’t understand, and sometimes, like Historian said, they’ll be flat, big bads, OR, like with the Firelord (I haven’t really watched avatar btw) their character arc isn’t so much for their sake, but for the sake of others, to better understand others.
Sometimes trying to make someone feel for a villain won’t work, and…sometimes that’s the point too. It’s really kinda strange writing villains sometimes, it can depend on the reader, just a lot of things, and a good example for me is honestly my favorite series, KOTLC (of course!)
I can’t say the name of the villain because it’s a HUGE spoiler for those who haven’t reached this point, but needless to say, I hate this villain.
Because that’s the point. You’re not supposed to like her. If you did…you might agree with what they’re doing.
because honestly, some of the things the person says? Makes sense. And that’s scary.
At first you’re like “You’re insane!” But as the series carry on, and the “Good rulers” become more corrupt, you start to see more and more of the flawed system and where the Villains are coming from.
And that’s another way I think you can make your villains powerful.
Give then the same views of the world as the hero/heroine. That is exactly what this villain has, basically, but this villain goes about it in a entirely different and horrible way.
But keeps winning. And it’s to the point the heroine wonders if they’re even accomplishing anything.
With us, we always have to make sure the lines are cleared in the end, the good is shown as GOOD, and with this series that is one thing I hope the author will continue to do…idk, it’s getting a bit too skewed imo and this is from a huge fan but anywaaaay XD
giving your villain the same goals as the hero?
Chefs kiss XD
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