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Hey guys. I’m back with another crazy topic.
Themescape. My spellcheck tells me that’s not a word, but who cares? Not me.
Anyway.
I’m looking for general thoughts on themes. How many themes should there be in one novel? (I have my own opinion on that one, but I’ll keep it under my hat until it’s disputed haha).
How should the theme serve the story and make the story stronger? Should the theme be connected to the MC’s character arch, or should it be separate and only attached to the plot? Which way is stronger? Which way will most easily and skillfully carry an idea across?
Is it good to write a story simply to make a point? Can a story with a main focus on the theme, however good the theme, be a good story at the same time?
What are some overused themes in Christian literature (or literature in general) and how can we put a unique spin on them so they aren’t ho-hum and cliche?
If you were allowed to pick one theme you would like to see more in literature, what would it be?
And as Christian writers, how do we put themes of redemption and salvation in our books and still make it so a secular reader will not throw down the book in disgust? Much as you or I would throw down a book with themes of humanism, evolution, or mysticism. That’s how they see Christianity, after all— a crazy, stupid worldview based around some criminal crucified thousands of years ago who is claimed to have resurrected.
I also have my opinions on that one… but I’ll wait until one of you guys brings it up. 😀
So… what do you think?None of these are strong opinions, but they are opinions. I have a lot of those.
How many themes should there be in one novel?
Doesn’t really matter so long as they are strong themes. Weak themes are better not there.
How should the theme serve the story and make the story stronger?
I don’t really know. I think its just that having a theme in the first place makes your story strong.
Should the theme be connected to the MC’s character arch, or should it be separate and only attached to the plot?
I don’t think it really matters. The plot serves the character arch so your gonna be connecting your theme to your character’s development no matter what.
Is it good to write a story simply to make a point?
Well, the point is to have a point. However, if you only have a point, you have a statement not a story. Stories are the silver platter on which the point is served. You need both.
Can a story with a main focus on the theme, however good the theme, be a good story at the same time?
Yep.
What are some overused themes in Christian literature (or literature in general) and how can we put a unique spin on them so they aren’t ho-hum and cliche?
Hmm. I’m not an expert on this, but I think that most redemption stories have this MC who’s getting into trouble and his/her friend who is the faith character in the story and who is trying to keep the MC out of trouble and to bring him to a reliance upon the savior. It might be neat to illuminate that christian helping friend. Maybe, the message of salvation may even come from an enemy. That’s kinda what I’m planing to do in my novel.
If you were allowed to pick one theme you would like to see more in literature, what would it be?
Oh my, what a question. Well, I would like to see more christian literate in the first place. (Oh, look! There’s this site dedicated to it!) Other than that, its hard to say. I really don’t know.
And as Christian writers, how do we put themes of redemption and salvation in our books and still make it so a secular reader will not throw down the book in disgust?
Great question! Well, if you are just focusing on a general moral attribute like honoring your parents, being sneaky about it can be a good idea. Prepare your trap, and then when they are least expecting it, connect the dots. Another good idea is to so show the depravity sin leads to that your reader will be led to accept the right way in disgust with the other. Along these lines, if you are writing a gospel centered theme, you should go through the same process every believer goes through. That is that they are first convicted of their sin. They begin to fear and look for a way of escape. Then they go, “Wait, God took my place? Yeah, sign me up with Him.” Often the gospel can be presented in to formal a manner. Someone shows the character his sin and then the character repents right there. There’s nothing wrong with that. It is certainly possible. I just think there is a more compelling way. How about first having God’s spirit so convict him that he utterly despises himself? The reader. Get the reader to feel the same dread as the character. Then when the time comes, the answer may be revealed and I do believe it may even add to the drama of the story rather than detract from it.
This post is so long I didn’t even check it for errors. Forgive my no doubt glaring mistakes
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Good points, Daeus.
I will add a few little differences of opinion we seem to have here… when I asked if the theme should be attached to the MC’s character arch or the plot, you said it didn’t really matter. Here’s why I disagree. Oftentimes, if the theme is whatever the MC went through (learning to lead, learning how harmful pride can be, learning to follow and walk in humility) the theme is not as powerful, to my thinking. If the reader goes through it with the MC, they will feel it hard, yes, but if the reader sees the MC walking in the wrong direction and they are very attached to the MC, they’re going to panic. I guess my question was really, sometimes can it be better to take the MC through a negative character arch against what is clearly the theme of the book? Say they didn’t learn to walk in humility— what if it ended up getting them killed? No, that’s too much like an M. Sherwood story… but you get what I mean. At least I hope you do.
Another point that was not a disagreement but something I thought was interesting is that if the characters don’t have a Christian worldview, the secular reader is much more likely to be unsuspecting. That’s one of the reasons I like fantasy so much— because there is no Christianity, no mention of Christ or the gospel, no prayer or Scripture or anything. Everything you say is in the theme. But just because a character does not have a Christian worldview doesn’t mean they can’t experience love, mercy, compassion, redemption, repentance, and sacrifice.
So I believe fantasy is a very powerful tool to weave Christian themes and spring them on an unsuspecting reader when it’s too late for them to do anything but finish the book, because hopefully they’re so caught up in it they can’t put it down!And yes, I’m not exactly a fan of the instantaneous conversion. It’s just so… fake, really. But that’s another discussion entirely.
Yeah, I get what you mean. Negative character arches can be very powerful. That can be one example of a well done sad ending. It would take skill though.
I get what you mean about fantasy. The one pitfall in that approach though is that if you are not careful, you may end up presenting a moralist gospel. If you can manage the balancing act though, you’ve got a tremendous weapon in your hands. I
Ben-Hur is one book that had a clear gospel theme and yet was extremely popular among Christian and non Christian audiences alike. It was one of the greatest evangelistic novels of all time and was actually the best selling novel of the 19th century. The conversion seemed real because the character was driven to the cross. He didn’t happen upon it and go, “Oh, that’s neat. I’ll put it in my pocket.” No, he had been enamored with Jesus in a secular sort of way that secular people could sympathize with. Then it hit him. The true nature of the Messiah which he had always wondered about, but never believed, became suddenly apparent to him. Also, we don’t see the conversion until the end and it comes right after a complete failure. We see all his dreams crumbling around him and the truth shining in such an eminent way that it is hard to deny. The secularist upon reading this book, must surely harden his heart if he does not believe. He cannot say, “Oh, how cheesy.” By no means. Did I mention that I love Ben-Hur. Yes I did, but you’re hearing it again.
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Oh yes. I love Ben-Hur too. It’s just all around such a great story, though I might make the complaint that Esther is too perfect— look who’s talking. 😛
Yes, I understand what you mean about taking that approach with fantasy and accidentally presenting a moralist gospel, but for some reason I don’t think that would happen, at least with my books. I don’t quite know how to say it— I guess maybe the themes in my fantasy books are more allegorical than they are teaching, and the teaching comes through the allegory. I’ll give you an example, because I’m making a mess of articulating myself.
Okay, so in my fantasy series that I”m writing, there are two books, one right after another, whose themes tie into each other. The theme of the first book (of those two) is sacrifice— pretty much, everyone dies in the end. (My ‘Tale of Two Cities’ ending— dibs dibs dibs). So in the second book, the MC is the one person who survived when all those other guys died, and they all died so he could survive. And the MC is haunted by those deaths for most of the book, driven forward, always dreading to prove himself unworthy of their sacrifice, driven to be perfect so he can earn it. But in the end he realizes that there are some sacrifices too precious to be merited— some gifts too great to be deserved. And that is why they are gifts.So I don’t know exactly how to say this— they aren’t as much ‘moral’ themes as they are exploratory themes— exploring the meaning of sacrifice, the meaning of grace, the meaning of love. And personally, I think those kinds of themes are a lot stronger.
So what do you think is essential to a good strong theme? How should each role (MC, villain, antagonist, protagonist) serve the theme and make it better? Is it better to do obvious themes, or vague themes with a moment at the end when suddenly everything makes sense?
Oh, and by the way, I don’t think there ought to be a limit as to how many themes there are in a book. There should always be one overarching theme that basically sums the whole book up in one concept, but every relationship, every struggle, every victory is going to send some kind of message. Personally, I like reading and writing books that have the beginnings of ideas woven all through them—maybe only mentioned in a passing dialogue—that send the reader’s imagination wild with philosophy and novel concepts about life. It’s fun. Like, really fun. Besides,if you followed every theme to its end, you would end up writing a one hundred thousand page book, and no one is going to take the time to read such a chunk simply because of the size, no matter the quality of the story.
Do you ever ask easy questions? Oh, well.
A strong theme is contrasted with its opposite. It is only realized through intense struggle. It is however, heavily idealized. There ought to be no restraint in the glory of good.
The villain, if there is a villain (and there are times you can go without them), must not merely oppose the MC in a physical sense. He must (at least usually) oppose him on a mental/spiritual level as well.
I don’t think it is really preferable one way or another having themes obvious or non obvious and then revealed. I have read powerful stories written both ways.
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Of course not! Easy questions are not discussion starters! 😀
The villain, if there is a villain (and there are times you can go without them), must not merely oppose the MC in a physical sense. He must (at least usually) oppose him on a mental/spiritual level as well.
Okay… good. I like that. Let’s take that. Let’s go deeper with that one. What are some ways to do that well?
Here, maybe I’ll try and think of an easy question. How’s your day going?
Or did that just take it from bad to worse?Forgive me if you were expecting a long post— I’m a little woozy this morning after having stayed up until midnight watching the second Republican Presidential Debate. My thinker is not on par with it’s normal intelligent, talkative self. 😛
Wow, now there’s two debates I haven’t seen. My political awareness is about as good as a groundhog’s. How’d it go?
Despite that, I am having a good day. Don’t expect me to ever give a different answer. Occasionally I have great days, but most of the time I have good days.
On villains: Their opposition to the progress in the reaching of the desired goal by the MC can be expressed in two forms, intentional and unintentional. Intentional opposition on a mental/spiritual realm can be very interesting. Such villains are not merely enemies of your MC, they are evil masterminds formed and molded of evil itself. Often, they desire not merely to destroy the hero, but to make him evil like themselves. Those who oppose the hero unintentionally are more common, but they can be just as powerful. Think of Javert in Les Miserables. He was out to capture Jean Valjean. That was his goal, and no other. To the story however, he represents something much greater than a mere threat to Jean Valjean. He is the living opposite of Jean Valjean, the very incarnate form of stern hearted iron judgment and unbending law. He scoffed at Jean Valjean’s attempt to find any identity save in his number, 24601. He could not allow hope or mercy, only justice had a place in his mind. He himself was just, and he would have wrath upon those who fell below. Of course, Jean Valjean was not a lawless man, but was a merciful man and he alone shone the light that brought some few blessed hopeless ones out of their misery. It is this theme of grace that Javert opposes. More important is that aspect of his antagonism to the story than his physical antagonism to Jean Valjean.
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Eh… the debate was so-so. It’s really difficult to give equal talking time to each candidate when there are so many of them, so it was kind of a confused mess.
I didn’t catch your Les Mis reference, not having read the book, but I see what you’re saying nonetheless. That’s certainly a very powerful way to do it.
But I just had this really cool thought.
What if the villain’s goal was the hero’s goal as well?
Not like a rival thing—each racing the other for the completion of a common goal, but like what if the hero thought the world should be perfect. What if the hero devoted his life to making it that way? That’s his struggle, his ideal. He wants to see the world a perfect place. Everyone in unity, working together for the bettering of their lives and the common good–living by the golden rule and treating every man as an equal in every way. But he can’t figure out how this utopia is going to come about, because no one wants to listen to him and all the bad guys out there are ruining his plan.
Enter the like-minded villain. He also wants to see the world a perfect place—only difference is, he knows how to go about it. He’ll conquer the world and make it a happy, peaceful place by force, in spite of itself. No big deal.
So the hero is fighting against someone with whom he shares a vision—and really, when the hero comes to think of it, the villain’s plan isn’t all that bad, is it? After all, if it’ll make the world a perfect place…
Right there you’ve got a major conflict between the hero and the villain— a conflict of morals and ethics besides all the physical battles. Because the hero isn’t sure but what the villain may be right.
It’s pretty cool, if you ask me.
That is pretty cool. I don’t think I’ve ever read a book like that. Animal Farm was kinda like that, but not entirely.
And no matter how long your book list is, put Les Mis up near the top (along with the count of monte cristo. My favorite of all). Amazing! … and very long. Think bible long, both of them. but hey, that’s a year’s worth of some of the best writing you will ever read in your entire life. I’m taking a step out on a limb here having not read TLOTR yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you end up liking them even better than Tolkien. If you doubt me, read them for yourself. Striking masterpieces. You will never forget them.
By the way, If you don’t claim that plot, I may ask for it in a year or so when I can get around to it. Somebody needs to start a catalog of all the tremendous plot ideas us kingdom penners have come up with.
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I think I’ll have to claim that plot. It fits right in with a villain who was really only a vague idea in my mind— heh heh. Sorry. I really need to stop posting novel ideas on a forum full of novelists. It’s bad for my health.
And let me just say, Animal Farm is a GREAT book. I read it, and I was just like ‘ouch’. It was so hard hitting I almost literally winced. I loved it. Love it still, actually.
Now to business.
Daeus. There is no such thing in the world as something better than Tolkien. The branch does not support your weight. You risked and failed. You may thank your stars that I a merciful and do not choose to gnaw the branch off at the trunk before you can get off of it. *speaks to herself in sinister whisper* ‘Does he, can he, mean it, Kate my dear? Is it possible? Is it… decorous? Does it call for… retaliation? It is in all conceivable ways truly inconceivable. I will conclude that it was a joke. He may one day thank me for it, my dear.’No, seriously, you have a right to your own opinion. But I am fully persuaded that nothing will ever top the Lord of the Rings for me. There is nothing lacking in them— absolutely nothing I would change. They are perfect in every conceivable way.
Let’s strike a deal, hey? If you will consider (notice I don’t say you have to do it, only that you consider doing it) reading the Lord of the Rings, I will do my utmost to read the Count of Monte Cristo and Les Miserables. Deal?
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