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In a book I am currently writing, there is an oppressive government and a rebellion ends up beginning…the Christians (who are persecuted) don’t start it, but they are a big part of it. What are your views of a Christian’s place in war or rebellion. I believe it is fine for a Christian to fight in a war if he is needed, but what about rebellions? Does a Christian have a place in starting revolutions, or just taking a side once they’ve begun? What are your thoughts on all this?
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Legitimate government is instituted by God.
Render to Ceaser what is Ceasers.
Render to God what is Gods.
We obey the civil authorities.
We do not obey them if they command us to sin.
If they aren’t commanding us to sin, we obey.
I’m tired, happy fragments.
Yep. He got it. Short and sweet.
But I’ll add a few more detailed thoughts. A government can command a person to sin without sticking a gun under his nose and saying ‘bow down to that idol or I’ll blow your brains out’. If a Christian sees a minority group being persecuted, (take for example a slave trade, or antisemitism) they are supposed to do everything they can to stop the wickedness and oppression. Now, they can do this without rebelling, by instituting organizations such as the Underground Railroad, etc. but sometimes it comes to war. Sometimes things become so bad that war is a necessity. And in such cases,
‘To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to gain, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to throw away; a time to tear, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.‘
God does not condemn war. He told Peter to go out and buy a sword. He called the warrior King David ‘a man after His own heart’. And there certainly is a time for war. Just as there is a time for every purpose under heaven.To further clarify my thoughts above (because I was in a hurry when I wrote it) how does a Christian’s duty to obey the leader’s set in place by God, and a citizen’s duty to protect the nation’s freedoms for the next generation fit. I’m especially thinking about here in America, where the government is by the people, and what would happen if (like in my books) a dictator and anti-god government took over.
Here are my thoughts. I think it’s fine for a Christian to fight to defend himself, and for a Christian to be a soldier in defense of one’s own land. When a rebellion starts, I propose a Christian could, in good conscience, join that rebellion if it represents his land better than the current government (like the Revolutionary War, for example).
How far, if at all, a Christian should actually go to instigate a rebellion (since we are commanded to obey our leaders) is something I’m unsure of.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Rebellion is, of all combat, the most iffy, but I think it can be done well. The most necessary element is a clear mission. The best “rebellion” is where the resistant party recognizes a new political authority as supreme. Think of the American revolution (which by the way wasn’t really a revolution). The Americans were not technically in rebellion, they were actually just defending their country (or states rather) from invasion. Nationalists would say that such is actually a rebellion, but I don’t really care what nationalists say. I believe in the right of secession.
When it comes to real rebellions, things get more complicated. You are probably in such cases directly breaking the law in cases where it is not unbiblical for you to keep them. For instance, you may be rebelling against a total ban on all weapons and government confiscation of property without due process of law. Now there is nothing wrong with giving up your property or your guns (well, I might make the case, but …). You can do that, but should you? Rebellion may seem to conflict with passages about obeying authorities, (and it might) but I am not sure that it really does. There are other commands that do not apply in combat situations. If we can justify rebellion, then we can justify no longer recognizing an authority even if we don’t have one to replace it with. If we don’t have an authority, then we don’t need to obey it. I’m not taking a definitive stance here on rebellion. I need to do more study on it myself. It is more ambiguous than normal war. I am however putting forth weighty propositions. Let me supply some reasons why rebellion might be a possibility.
Psalm 149:6-9
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.
Praise the Lord!When this was written, it might have only been talking about foreign nations, but God’s covenant people are no longer a nation, so we could include any country under this umbrella in our modern times. The power given to God’s servants is to punish such powers according to the written judgment. I assume this means the judgment against nations that forget God. If so, then when a nation drifts into utter depravity and become oppressive, it is permissible for God’s servants to pick up the sword. If the gov. is acting perversely in rebellion to a more sovereign authority (like the constitution) then it is not even rebellion to rebel against the lesser authority. If the gov. is threatening your family then I think Nehemiah 4:14 would apply. Of course, you always have to do a cost benefit analysis. Is it worth it?
If it ever comes to such a situation in America, I think the best option would be to reject the federal authority and operate under state authority. It is always best to replace one authority with another. Try not to leave that position void. States are the natural choice, especially if you believe in state sovereignty like I do. If you believe in state sovereignty then you are actually more law abiding to reject a federal authority in lieu of a state one. If the states are likewise corrupted, you could recognize an even smaller authority or move somewhere else. One authoritative book on this topic is Lex Rex. Haven’t read it yet, but I really want to.
I’m tired. Probably made some grammar mistakes. Please don’t kill me grammar Nazi.
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and a citizen’s duty to protect the nation’s freedoms for the next generation fit
OK, the half of the sentence before this I saw as scripturally backed up.
This sounds like ‘Murica, not Bible.
Bad ‘Murica. Shame.
If you start thinking that way, you’re placing the idea of moral absolute on the individual. Because I’m so cool, I’m actually going to use a quote from Studio C: “By that logic you could justify killing anyone just by classifying them as the enemy.”
I can’t hear, “Obey the government, except in things contrary to God’s law.” And take away, “Make sure the government is doing the right thing.”
Two very different things.
The Romans were…pretty bad at the time of Jesus. And Jesus knew they were gonna be much worse. And far more ungodly. He didn’t say, “Make sure you don’t let them become that.” He said, “Listen to ’em!”
It’s not our job to try and make the government the way it should be. It’s our job to regulate /our/ lives as they should be lived.
(That is not to say we shouldn’t hope and pray for a Godly government of course.)
Love Studio C. 🙂 Anyway, I see what you are saying about moral absolutes. We can’t just rebel because we don’t like what is going on in the government.
At the same time, I would argue that (here in America, anyway, and at this current time) a citizens duty is a bit different than in Roman times. In Roman times, you simply obeyed. Now, we legally do have a say in the government. I’m not trying to say by this that we shouldn’t obey our leaders, but simply that we have a greater responsibility for making sure the nation is run righteously (if possible) and for safeguarding our freedoms (also, if possible). Whether a Christian should actually resist a government to the point where fighting breaks out (if peaceable things like protests and elections fail and…like in my book…an oppressive dictator has taken over) is a bit harder. Which is why I started this topic. 😉
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Its not your duty to protect the next generation’s rights (except by respecting them yourself), its the government’s. It is however your duty to protect those who are wrongfully attacked by government oppression. Sometimes you must go willingly to prison, but there is no shame in escape. It can be strategic. Sometimes you need to kidnap Martin Luther from his enemies and hide him in a castle. Sometimes when soldiers are killing innocent people you need to draw that 45. Peaceful measures should always be the first measures, but when they are exhausted, sometimes you are left with resistance. When it comes to resistance, you are at war. You can spy, sabotage, blow up stuff, etc. An outlaw is an outlaw. Just remember, you don’t wan’t to be an outlaw, and you shouldn’t find yourself in that situation just because you are rebellious in nature and wan’t to create a utopia. You should only be there if you are forced there.
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You can spy, sabotage, blow up stuff, etc.
sabotage, blow up stuff, etc.
blow up stuff
Now we’re talking.Hello after all these weeks. I’m now in the business of resurrecting dead topics. Morbid? Perhaps.
But I’m reading through Ecclesiastes right now, and I came across this passage:
‘Where the word of a king is, there is power; and who may say to him “What are you doing?”
He who keeps his commands will experience nothing harmful; and a wise man’s heart discerns both time and judgment, though the misery of a man increases greatly.’It made me think of this discussion.
I don’t pretend to know all of what it means— but what it seems to be saying is that a wise man will wait in patience until the time is ripe for judgment, and be careful in the king’s presence until that time arrives. No matter how miserable things are for him. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
Love the GIF, by the way, Ezra. Where do you find those, anyway?
Oh, this is perfect timing. I’m learning about the American Revolution and a similar question to this was raised and the series I’m thinking about starting this November may have a similar situation to yours, Hope.
Alright this is from Romans Chapter 13.
1
Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.a
2
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil.b Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.c
5
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.d
6
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.If the government oppresses the poor or the fatherless, or goes against what the Bible teaches we should stand up. Of course at first peacefully, but often, dictators don’t listen to orators, but weapons. Of course, many situations are different.
War should be the last resort, but it is sometimes the inevitable outcome.
Also (I highlighted this in bold) “the government is a servant of God for your good.” If the government isn’t this, could this mean that we can take action, whether peaceful or otherwise?
Just my two bits. 🙂
I think Ecclesiastes: 8:5 makes more sense when read with verse 6. To use your translation: Ecclesiastes 8:5-6,
“He who keeps his command will experience nothing harmful;
And a wise man’s heart discerns both time and judgment,
6 Because for every matter there is a time and judgment,
Though the misery of man increases greatly.”The phraseology of verse 5 does not seem to indicate waiting for the time of judgment, for there is a great difference between waiting for and discerning. If it said they discern the time of judgment, that would be one thing. Nevertheless it says they discern both time and judgment. It seems clear (especially when read with verse 6) that the wise can determine what is the judgment that must be brought forth and when it is appropriate to do so. Verse 6 explains that those who are not wise will want to use an unfitting judgment when the time is not yet ripe because of the great oppression they feel. Nevertheless, the wise can discern what is proper.
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Okay. That’s a good way to look at it, Daeus. I like that.
@David— Exactly! Government is instituted by God for the protection of the people. It is a blessing. It is something we should cherish and obey.
But… those verses speak generally of government— the concept of government, of being governed, if you will. They speak of government AS IT OUGHT TO BE. When a government ceases to be this way (take our government, for example) it is no longer following the path God set out for it and therefore IF REBELLION BECOMES NECESSARY REBELLION IS PERMISSIBLE. I believe you said that, or something like that. I agree completely.
So if a government commands against God’s law (by legalizing gay marriage, say) our obligation to obey God is greater than our obligation to obey the government.
But yes, rebellion should be a last resort.
Good thoughts all around.This doesn’t quite have to do with my original question…but what are you thoughts about assassination during war. Right or wrong? I actually do have a fairly strong opinion on this, but am curious what you think.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Well David wouldn’t assassinate the Lord’s anointed, but there was a judge who assassinated an oppressive ruler who had subjugated the nation of Israel. I haven’t really studied this much, but it appears it might be ok in some circumstances and not in others, though were to draw the line, I don’t know.
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