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@whalekeeper Ooo bravo, that is a great observation!! It truly is sad that many books today will normalize leaving parents out of the picture or only include the ones that are abusive/the cause of charries’ trauma 🤦🏽♀️. Love the conversation here tho and reading all of y’alls perspectives on the issue!!
I hate to say it, but my two main WIPs don’t actually have living parents….😭😭😭…. I’m sorryyyyy. I have some flash fiction stories including parents, but their characters obviously aren’t developed to a large extent…
For my allegorical WIP Raven’s Quest, it kind of had to be that way bc I needed to make it so impactful when her Grandmother falls ill with the Hathiat (aka “sin”) which was also the cause of her parents’ deaths. Throughout the story, Raven keeps coming back to how she can’t lose her grandmother too and how it would hurt doubly more because she would be all alone (she obviously loved her parents very much). I do mention them and her remembrances of them but they’re just not… alive… Oh, there are several mentor characters in the story tho! Bowmaster Lorok is a big one, and he often instructs Raven, becoming like a father figure to her.
Then in my WWII WIP… well… it’s WWII soooo yea the parents die… oh, but Steffan’s uncle is a positive character and his role model. He just isn’t his father heh…
BUT, in my other WIP that I will hopefully regain someday (my dog chewed up the flash drive that it was stored on and I currently don’t have the money to get it repaired… assuming it can be repaired…) one of my main characters has a father and although he isn’t a very big character bc she spends most of the storyline finding her way BACK to him (she’s kidnapped), he’s mentioned positively on several occasions.
I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
Hmm well now you’ve got me thinkin… I wonder if one reason parents are left out of storylines so much is because the idea of instruction coming from someone older and wiser–really, the concept of authority–is something that’s trying to be excluded. People may not know that this is what they’re doing but, like @whalekeeper said initially, it does make it a lot easier sometimes to write a character who can go off and do something dangerous that, if a mother were involved, would likely not be allowed lol.
One thing that defines the teenagers of our generation is resistance to authority. It’s definitely an appealing thought to have to answer to no one (except God of course. Altho most will simply leave him out of the picture…). Definitely something all of us writers have to be careful about. Like @freedomwriter76 said, know the intention and the why behind what you include or exclude in writing.
Personally, I think I’m going to do my best to include more mother/father characters in my future stories. I never noticed how sparse they are in my WIPs! 🙁
I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
@starshiness I’m pretty sure you are right. One interesting thing is that there is no overarching rating board for books like there is for movies or video games. Instead books are placed into the sections that they are by publishers, libraries, and bookstores. When trying to decide where to place a book (either the children’s, young adult, or adult section) they often look at both the content of the book and at who the book will appeal to. In addition the audience that a book will speak most to us often considered with more weight than the content of a book. (note that never in here was the authors intended audience a factor) Also generally these groups like to place all books in a series into one section rather than splitting up books between sections ( this is why you will see for example all of the Harry Potter books in the children’s section when the last few books in the series are considerably darker (and more YA level) than the first few) Thus as was stated above since defying corrupt authority, freedom and finding yourself is more appealing to the great majority of teens in America, than say submitting to older adults, books featuring those themes are far more prevalent in the YA section. It is similar to news corporations. (Ie since Fox News gets more viewers whore are far right politically they produce more far right news to please and keep those viewers, and since CNN gets more viewers who are liberals it produces more liberal news to keep and please those viewers)Also on a side note the YA audience that these publishers, book sellers, and libraries have in minds are generally late 12 to early 18 year olds (although a large number of the YA audience is made up of adults as well)
In terms of what you said about flaws generally you are going to find hero’s that are flawed in that way in either the children’s section or the Adult section. Generally this is because these types of flaws are less appealing to YA readers and because they generally either produce characters that are either obviously good or morally ambiguous. (As a side note having a high casts of mortally ambiguous characters is a one way ticket to the adult section)
Specifically though you might want to check out the grimdark sub-genre is built around only having only morally ambiguous characters. For obvious reasons though one must be a carful when looking for grimdark books as this idea of making only morally ambiguous protagonists can easily lead in less appropriate directions. (For example see Game Of Thrones)
However if you don’t mind stomaching a few dozen curse words and a couple of fight scenes I think you would benefit from reading Joe Abercrombie’s The Blade Itself as it is a very good example of the flaws you were talking about being put to use.
You might find it interesting that npr did an article on why teens are drawn to dystopia novels. You can find it here: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/07/05/623292216/for-teens-dystopian-fiction-seems-pretty-real-and-thats-why-they-like-it#:~:text=Press-,For%20Teens%2C%20Dystopian%20Fiction%20Seems%20Pretty%20Real%20—%20And%20That’s%20Why,of%20the%20developing%20teenage%20brain.
This isn’t something you have to apologize for, kay? <3 I am not the high and mighty word of wisdom. This is just something I wanted to talk about, and foster consideration. And your charries’ role models sound great!
@everyoneingeneral
I read all your posts, and thank you for spamming me, I enjoyed it, and am glad that people care <3 <3 <3 Hearts!!!
And also (I believe @freedomwriter76 first brought this up?), I am not saying that we should ignore sin. In fact, I’ve been called out by people before for having darker themes and content in my ideas. I have never been afraid of violence and evil. And I do not believe that we should hide in a pocket of light, and blind ourselves. So I’ll clarify.
Which is kind of hard… I don’t know how to put my thoughts into words without sounding harsh… so I’m sorry if this sounds so. You guys are awesome. I don’t want to hurt anyone.
Essentially, I think it’s easy for us to say something, and relish in the drama of it without actually understanding the weight of our words.
Emotions are messy, aaand we can be fooled by them. They aren’t, in my opinion, true signs of one’s state of being. You can boil yourself up into feeling sad, or ‘righteously angry,’ or bittersweet. But you’re actually enjoying the emotions themselves.
This culture, today, is tied up in feelings. How you feel. But feelings don’t always reflect the truth of things, especially today, considering how you’re expected to flip-flip-flip through videos on the internet, switching from a sad true story to a funny cat video in the blink of an eye. Emotions are now on hyper speed – and no one takes them seriously anymore. They say they do, but they feel them for the pleasure of it. We’ve been desensitized, when it comes to the actual truth of things.
If you pay attention to your feelings over a period of tine, you might realize that like, 99% of them don’t actually mean anything or affect you greatly.
So, teenager readers these days (or at least many of them) love drama. And dead and abusive parents equal DrAmA and AnGsT and all the FeELs. Do they actually understand the weight of those feelings? Often, no.
And we, the writers, can fool ourselves into feeling sadness and angst and everything… but we’re actually just enjoying the drama.
But get this, I have that same problem. At least, in other situations. Often with death scenes. I just need to ask myself what I’m feeling and why.
I keep using the word Drama… XD But that’s THE word that describes our teen generation, honestly. It’s our weakness.
So to the Parent Problem XD Of course we need to recognize that dead, missing, negligent, and abusive parents exist. I myself have some kind-of experience with that. But are we considering how this writing will affect readers? Will they actually understand how terrible this is? Or will it be just another source of angst?
Of course, the difference between understanding and feeling wrong is a topic in and of itself. XD All I’ll say is this: The true emotions are the result of wrong doing, not the reason they are wrong.
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Guys, I apologize. Got a bit philosophical there for a minute. XD My hobbies… I need to stop studying Socratic dialogues… lol
Okay okay I might stop talking like this over the summer, since I’m trying to burn a few brain cells over bike rides and video games. Buuuut we’ll see 🙂
#ProtectAdolinKholin
I need to stop doing this, I am going to lose some friends
#ProtectAdolinKholin
Don’t stop, conversations like this are fun!
Thank you, thank you for coming out and being brave enough to speak about your beliefs. This is a good thing, and you were very respectful and gracious. I personally agree with you and I really appreciate the way you talked about emotion and drama. This is so true.
I have always been hesitant to write about abusive parents/broken families because I don’t have a lot of experience with it and didn’t want to misrepresent what it would really be like to live through something like that. So I probably err on the side of too many “perfect parents”. (Actually I only have one tentative bad parent relationship in all my stories…)
I think it’s crucial to showcase helpful parent/child/sibling/spouse relationships in our stories because they are so rare nowadays. Children need to read a story where the MC goes to their parents for advice, and respects them, etc. Parents need to be portrayed as being good, not always “the bad guys”. Even a mother’s cautious “Don’t do that, it’s dangerous” can be portrayed as caring and loving, not “she doesn’t want me to have fun”.
I also agree with @freedomwriter too though, because sin needs to be dealt with. If she feels called to deal with these serious issues in her stories, and she can portray them as sin, but show characters forgiving and working through them and over all redemption shines through…that’s wonderful!
It’s nuanced, for sure, and some of us will have differing opinions, but ultimately, we all want to shine the light of Jesus through our stories so we can combat the enemy. And that is powerful. So don’t stop, keep fighting.
He must increase, but I must decrease.
Not losing any friendship here. I love people who want to talk about important things like this and who aren’t afraid say what they think is true. Please keep reading your dialogues and bringing up great topics to discuss.
🎵It takes a long time to wait 🌻
Thank you so much for making this! XD
I have a couple instances of bad parents in my story, but also some good ones.
I’ve noticed the exact same thing in books for ya these days. It’s pretty tempting to go that way because it’s really hard to give characters actually moral flaws, because we love them and want them to be perfect! XD
One of the things I’ve done in my story, is decided to show sometimes, people do get reconciled. My oc Lesli doesn’t have bad parents, but her fathers depression and lack of connection to the family causes her mom to divorce. I plan on having them get back together, but show that it doesn’t fix everything, and their kinda having to start from square one again. I think it’s important to keep some of it realistic. It’s kinda messy and grey sometimes, but not usually black.
As for the mental health issues, I always have a different opinion on it if the author has gone through it. I generally only write about topics I have personally experienced (even if just a small extent) because then you know whether it is realistic or not.
Ok as for the nice parents club!!
My oc Layson has a super supportive mom! He wants to get out there and try to change the world (dispite that being dangerous) And she accepted the fact that this is just who he is and he needs to live it out.
My oc Keiryn has a awesome Grandma who is kinda his refuge when his “friends” start to go wayward.
My oc’s Layson and Everly get married and have an adopted daughter named Maylee, to which they are very nice parents. Layson adopted Maylee a good bit before he got married, and she’s really what kept him going at life when things were rough.
Tauren also has nice parents. 🙂
Lesli has a mom with good intention who has been really tossed by life, but in the end lets her daughter do what is best for herself.
"And so I left this world just as I had entered it. Confused."
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@whalekeeper No losing any friends here! We all have different beliefs, and I’m okay with that. We don’t have to agree on everything to be friends. 🙂
I understand what you mean, and I think what we really need to do is remember what emotions really are. They’re not a bad thing because God created them and gave them to us, and even God has emotions, but culture has changed the meaning/importance of emotions. I certainly agree with you on that. <3
We all feel called to write about different things, and I think that’s important for all of us to remember (including myself!). For me, the abusive environment is personal for me for specific reasons, in that someone I dearly love grew up in that kind of environment for much of their childhood, and I think that’s one reason why I write about it and want to address it, besides the fact that I feel called to do so.
But I understand we all have different opinions, and it’s just another example of how God made all of us different! Not everyone believes the way I do, and I’m totally ok with that. 😀
OOOOO this is a very interesting discussion!
I agree that positive parents are desperately needed in fiction. I also agree that positive parents doesn’t mean flawless parents.
I have some positive parental relationships and potientally (I haven’t decided yet) some toxic parental relationships. I would think if you were going to write a toxic parental relationship, then you’d need to pray about it and make sure that “Hey God is it okay for me to be writing about this right now?” and understand the reality of situation (abuse isn’t pretty or okay or just for feels and shouldn’t be treated that way). Personally I don’t like writing scenes with abuse
this is partially why I haven’t decided yet, I hate abuse and the effects it has on people, even people that don’t seem like they’re involved in the situation. But at the same time, abuse with God in the situation still needs to be written about because people in the situation (whether abuser or victim or a third party that cares about one or the other or both) need to know that there is hope, for themselves and for others. However, I agree it’s not something to be like “oh I need conflict in my story, let’s tackle abuse.” That’s not grasping the reality of the situation and is just for feelings, usually. But writing with abuse in it isn’t necessarily written in there JUST for feels…yes, most people will have emotions when it is shown, most people aren’t heartless, but it doesn’t have to be written just for feels. That’s when the writer needs to evaulate WHY they’re including this topic. If it’s just for feels: reconsider your reasoning or drop the topic. If it’s because the LORD wants you to: Go for it, just make sure you understand the reality of the situation. If He wants you to include that situation in your writing, then He’ll make sure you find resources to learn about it and give you the wisdom to tackle that subject respectfully and realistically.WOAH that was a rant, sorry! XD
heh sorry I am opinionated and passionate on this subject…"...I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain..."
(Part of) Isaiah 45:19@whalekeeper no losing friends! 😊
also…yea YA is… *shudders* XD
WHICH IS WHY I READ MIDDLE GRADE OH YEAAAA XD
I’ve read some “YA???” or started some? I may have finished like…one??? But like all the books I read are middle grade XD XD XD
but even some of those it’s hard to find good onnnnnes.
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSeb@folith-feolin Ooo thank you for taking the time to write out that whole response, it was very fascinating to read through. There was much truth in it. I will definitely take a look at that article you mentioned as well! I personally do not like the dystopian genre very much so it will be interesting to learn why so many are drawn to it… I could never figure it out myself lol 🤷🏽♀️😂
@whalekeeper It would appear all your friends have decided to stick with ya, so we’re all good there 😉. I will also add my thanks to the list for opening the door for this topic and giving me some food for thought that I had not considered before! I’m perhaps the least likely person to write a story with these elements lol but nevertheless, it’s good to think about.
@godlyfantasy12 YO SAMEEEEE!! I read a lot of middle grade, which may be slightly embarrassing considering I will be a legal adult in a few months… XD. Then it’s hard when people my age ask for book recommendations bc I’m like, uh… well… how do you feel about characters that are significantly younger than you? XDI have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
@whalekeeper Ooh, fascinating topic. <3 I genuinely love good parent-child relationships in fiction. . . whenever they do show up. 😜
I think what you said is on point – it’s not the writing of abusive or absent parents that’s the problem, because those things do exist in real life and fiction should mirror that. The problem is the way it’s written, or the reason it’s written. “Relishing the drama” – that’s a fantastic way to say it.
It’s definitely easy to fall into. 😅 But that’s why I love the Christian writing community – we get discussions like this where everyone pauses and process why they’re writing what they’re writing and making sure it’s for the right reasons.
So yes. Standing ovation. 👏
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@folith-feolin That article is fascinating. . . thank you for sharing!wonder | beauty | truth | love
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