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June 22, 2017 at 12:01 pm #35666
Reposting this because my original post seems to have vanishedā¦
This doesnāt quite have to do with writing, but it has been somewhat connected with writing (i.e. the music I listen to as I write) and is something Iāve been thinking about ā so I figured Iād throw it up here and see what you all say.
Can a part of something be good, if the thing as a whole is bad?
To use the example that brought this to the forefront of my mind, take Game of Thrones. Iāve never watched the show and I donāt intend to. I know there are a number of things in there that arenāt good. The music, however, is beautiful. There are also several inspiring songs and music videos based off the show that are very cool.
Now, my view is that something beautiful, like a setting or costume or music, can be used in something that isnāt good (or is objectional to some people), such as a show with bad morality or movies that focus on wizards and magic, and yet can also be enjoyed for its own beauty apart from said show. Recently someone I greatly respect objected to such thinking, at least when it came to music. In his thinking, if something is from a show that is bad, like Game of Thrones music, then one shouldnāt listen to it simply because of the connection to the show.
Iāve yet to discuss it fully with him, but I wanted to see what the general thinking was on this topic and if there are any points or reasonings, either for or against, that I might be missing.
@jane-maree, @Daeus, @Dragon-Snapper, @Northerner, @Ethryndal, @Corissa-Maiden-of-Praise, @Jess
@Kate-Flournoy, @Winter-Rose, @AratreaINTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
June 22, 2017 at 12:18 pm #35668@hope My own opinion is yes. I listen to Game of Thrones music and other things that might be considered bad. I just try to listen to it through other places. (not their channel, for example.) If some random person uploaded it to youtube, Iāll listen because Iām not directly supporting the source. I realize that this method isnāt perfect (with copyrights and all that stuff), but I think itās okay to listen and find costumes and such, even if the source is less than great. š
June 22, 2017 at 12:22 pm #35669@Hope knee-jerk responses can be dangerous but we has one now and we shall just spit it all out so we can organize our thoughts. š
As far as music goes, itās an art form just as much as anything else. The purpose of artā all of itā is to reflect the beauty and order of Godās creation. Fan-fiction, if you will. *wink* We can all tell the difference between good and bad music, hopefully. While tastes do vary and I donāt want to accuse anyone who would happen to disagree, good music in my opinion is a focused reflection of order, harmony, and melody that breaks past the muddle and chaos and speaks of the creativity, beauty, and genius of our Creator.
The composer himself may never even realize that it reflects God, but we are all bound to unconsciously long for that beauty, even if we donāt understand what it really is.Music is also a complete art form. It may be written to accompany another art form (a movie, for instance) but it is complete in itself, and taken by itself will only say what it has to say for itself. I love the Game of Thrones music; most of it anyway. Itās beautiful and mysterious and complex and overall a very moving score. Never seen the show. Never want to.
That music can be tainted by association I do not deny, but if the association can only be made by taking two art forms together (score and show) thatās a pretty good indicator to me that the music is complete by itself.
Also, for what itās worth, Iāve come to associate that music a lot with my own work, because I listen to it for inspiration.
There are certainly genres of music that in themselves are meant to be corrupt, but that isnāt the point. The point is, yesā I believe music can stand or fall on its own feet.Thoughts, everyone?
@Hope, I like this :). So, I just finished Harry Potter, so Iām going to use that as an illustration, if I may.
Thereās lots of bad things in Harry Potter, we probably all agree. (I donāt think the magic qua magic was a problem, but thatās another topic.) The morality was. . . lacking. āThe ends justify the meansā was everywhere. People lie to friends and foes alike, and good things happen, not in spite of these things, but because of them. The fact that thereās a supernatural (or at least not exactly natural, and not governed by people, as evidenced by the fact that who is born with magic can be a pretty random thing) element shows up the fact that itās totally secular. Our world has facts demanding an explanation. God is the one who made the map to the universe, if you will. But this world (of HP) has even more facts that need explanation, and no map at all. Things like that.
But. Some of the humour is quite funny. Some of the themes arenāt bad. We can all agree, I think, that sacrificial love is good, even if we disagree about the nicer details. The series is not one hundred per cent evil. Now, I wouldnāt recommend the books. Thereās the Wingfeather Saga for themes of sacrificial love, adventure, derring-do, humour, fantastical worldbuilding ā and a better worldview. Still, I think when Fred says āHonestly, woman, you call yourself our mother?ā, that little conversation, if you laugh at it, is nothing to be guilty about. (If that makes any sense.)
Now with an idea, if the whole is bad, donāt trust the part unless you have very good reasons to do so. Say, for example, the whole notion of natural selection and survival of the fittest. I happen to know a man (you do too) who argues very well and very often against evolution. He believes that, according to our catechism, āthe work of creation is God making all things out of nothing by the word of His power, in six normal consecutive days, and all very good.ā So he rejects evolution as a whole. But he says the idea of āsurivival of the fittestā is a good idea taken over by evolutionists. (I doubt thereās historical proof for that.) Now, I think we all know that āsurvival of the fittestā especially, but not only, when applied to humans, is not a Christian idea. How about the sanctity of life? How about the fact that weāre supposed to guard, watch over, and take care of creation, rather than letting things fight against each other to see who eventually wins out, while we stand to the side and watch? Yeah, I donāt think so.
In short, if youāre talking about ideas, if the conclusion is wrong, at least one of the premises must be, and I wouldnāt swallow the other premise unless I had good reasons (from another source) to do so. With a thing, as a book, or costumes from a TV show, they can stand or fall on their own merits. Maybe, for example, GoT has a pretty, modest costume that you think would fit a characterās personality. I donāt see the harm in that. (If the costume is, you know, topless, backless, and ends above the knee, I wouldnāt say the same, of course.)
Thereās my ideas, and feel free to disagree :).
June 22, 2017 at 12:52 pm #35674@hope One thing that comes to mind is how Paul quoted the Cretan poet in wherever it is about evil beasts and lazy gluttons. That was a heathen poet, but Paul found one of his sayings profitable. Come to think of it, this is really basically the whole food sacrificed to idols thing all over again.
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June 22, 2017 at 1:29 pm #35676Good point @Daeus; I hadnāt thought of it in reference to that scripture.
@hope What they said. I was thinking what they said but I couldnāt get it down on paper in time to reply. š
Itās like a cake that tastes really bad. The cake is terrible, but the ingredients are fine. Choose your ingredients wisely.
Also, I love the Game of Thrones music, and a lot of other music from movies that I will never watch, but that doesnāt mean I canāt listen to them. The music in itself is not sin, like what @kate-flournoy said.ā ā ā ENFP ā ā ā
June 22, 2017 at 6:40 pm #35699@Hope *hums thoughtfully* I think itās a matter of personal opinion. For example, if person A has watched Game of Thrones and person B hasnāt. B might love the music for the beauty of it, but A might think it not-good because they associate it with the show itself, and therefore with bad content.
*hands you my two pence anyways*Writing Heroes ā¦ Writing Hope // janemareeauthor.com.au
@hope I agree with most of what everybody else is saying (which is pretty much the same thing). However, I do understand what your ārespected friendā says. The Bible does talk about offending another Christian by using something associated with something bad (the Bible uses eating meat offered to idols). You should be willing to give up what youāre doing (in this case listening to GoT music, which I adore btw) so as to not offend another Christian.
But I would say this. The Bible includes the fact that the Christian who is offended may sin as a result of your actions. For example, someone who was an avid GoT watcher then decided to stop watching it. In that case, you should not listen to GoT music (at least when theyāre around, at most not at all) in order to stop them from rationalizing, āWell, Hope listens to Game of Thrones soundtracks. Seems like sheās a fan. I guess I can watch Game of Thrones just as long as I ignore the bad parts. After all, Hope is a really godly girl.ā
However, if someone is just annoyed at you for listening to music that could be associated with evil. I wouldnāt say you have to give up the music. Iād simply kindly explain to them my position.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
June 22, 2017 at 10:05 pm #35708@mark-kamibaya, @jane-maree Yes, I agree. There is the association that, say, someone who watched the show and then stopped might have. Such a person probably wouldnāt be able to enjoy the music as music. And like @daeus mentioned, that is a case one would honor the āweaker brotherā. In most cases though, as a general rule, I agree with what everyone here seems to be saying ā that something like music can stand or fall on its own merits.
@northerner that is a good point, between ideas and actual āthingsā, like pictures and music. Iāve not thought about borrowing ideas much. And survival of the fittest. Hmmmā¦ Iāll have to remember that. XDINTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
June 23, 2017 at 8:51 am #35714I was going to make the point that @mark-kamibaya did; I donāt think listening to that music would be wrong, but you should be willing to give it up if it would cause another person to stumble.
ENFP - "One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
June 23, 2017 at 9:15 pm #35747@Hope Iām pretty much in agreement with the general consensus.
June 24, 2017 at 5:46 pm #35765Anonymous- Rank: Eccentric Mentor
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@hope Yep everyone seems on point so I donāt think Iāll add.
Never mind I take that back. (hopefully Iām not repeating someone else I didnāt read it all) My thing is, you canāt avoid everything just because a part is bad, just like you canāt embrace everything because a part is good. Life is all about balance and judgments often vary between individuals and what they believe God is pleased with.
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