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Reposting this because my original post seems to have vanished…
This doesn’t quite have to do with writing, but it has been somewhat connected with writing (i.e. the music I listen to as I write) and is something I’ve been thinking about – so I figured I’d throw it up here and see what you all say.
Can a part of something be good, if the thing as a whole is bad?
To use the example that brought this to the forefront of my mind, take Game of Thrones. I’ve never watched the show and I don’t intend to. I know there are a number of things in there that aren’t good. The music, however, is beautiful. There are also several inspiring songs and music videos based off the show that are very cool.
Now, my view is that something beautiful, like a setting or costume or music, can be used in something that isn’t good (or is objectional to some people), such as a show with bad morality or movies that focus on wizards and magic, and yet can also be enjoyed for its own beauty apart from said show. Recently someone I greatly respect objected to such thinking, at least when it came to music. In his thinking, if something is from a show that is bad, like Game of Thrones music, then one shouldn’t listen to it simply because of the connection to the show.
I’ve yet to discuss it fully with him, but I wanted to see what the general thinking was on this topic and if there are any points or reasonings, either for or against, that I might be missing.
@jane-maree, @Daeus, @Dragon-Snapper, @Northerner, @Ethryndal, @Corissa-Maiden-of-Praise, @Jess
@Kate-Flournoy, @Winter-Rose, @AratreaINTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
@hope My own opinion is yes. I listen to Game of Thrones music and other things that might be considered bad. I just try to listen to it through other places. (not their channel, for example.) If some random person uploaded it to youtube, I’ll listen because I’m not directly supporting the source. I realize that this method isn’t perfect (with copyrights and all that stuff), but I think it’s okay to listen and find costumes and such, even if the source is less than great. 🙂
@Hope knee-jerk responses can be dangerous but we has one now and we shall just spit it all out so we can organize our thoughts. 😛
As far as music goes, it’s an art form just as much as anything else. The purpose of art— all of it— is to reflect the beauty and order of God’s creation. Fan-fiction, if you will. *wink* We can all tell the difference between good and bad music, hopefully. While tastes do vary and I don’t want to accuse anyone who would happen to disagree, good music in my opinion is a focused reflection of order, harmony, and melody that breaks past the muddle and chaos and speaks of the creativity, beauty, and genius of our Creator.
The composer himself may never even realize that it reflects God, but we are all bound to unconsciously long for that beauty, even if we don’t understand what it really is.Music is also a complete art form. It may be written to accompany another art form (a movie, for instance) but it is complete in itself, and taken by itself will only say what it has to say for itself. I love the Game of Thrones music; most of it anyway. It’s beautiful and mysterious and complex and overall a very moving score. Never seen the show. Never want to.
That music can be tainted by association I do not deny, but if the association can only be made by taking two art forms together (score and show) that’s a pretty good indicator to me that the music is complete by itself.
Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve come to associate that music a lot with my own work, because I listen to it for inspiration.
There are certainly genres of music that in themselves are meant to be corrupt, but that isn’t the point. The point is, yes— I believe music can stand or fall on its own feet.Thoughts, everyone?
@Hope, I like this :). So, I just finished Harry Potter, so I’m going to use that as an illustration, if I may.
There’s lots of bad things in Harry Potter, we probably all agree. (I don’t think the magic qua magic was a problem, but that’s another topic.) The morality was. . . lacking. “The ends justify the means” was everywhere. People lie to friends and foes alike, and good things happen, not in spite of these things, but because of them. The fact that there’s a supernatural (or at least not exactly natural, and not governed by people, as evidenced by the fact that who is born with magic can be a pretty random thing) element shows up the fact that it’s totally secular. Our world has facts demanding an explanation. God is the one who made the map to the universe, if you will. But this world (of HP) has even more facts that need explanation, and no map at all. Things like that.
But. Some of the humour is quite funny. Some of the themes aren’t bad. We can all agree, I think, that sacrificial love is good, even if we disagree about the nicer details. The series is not one hundred per cent evil. Now, I wouldn’t recommend the books. There’s the Wingfeather Saga for themes of sacrificial love, adventure, derring-do, humour, fantastical worldbuilding — and a better worldview. Still, I think when Fred says “Honestly, woman, you call yourself our mother?”, that little conversation, if you laugh at it, is nothing to be guilty about. (If that makes any sense.)
Now with an idea, if the whole is bad, don’t trust the part unless you have very good reasons to do so. Say, for example, the whole notion of natural selection and survival of the fittest. I happen to know a man (you do too) who argues very well and very often against evolution. He believes that, according to our catechism, “the work of creation is God making all things out of nothing by the word of His power, in six normal consecutive days, and all very good.” So he rejects evolution as a whole. But he says the idea of “surivival of the fittest” is a good idea taken over by evolutionists. (I doubt there’s historical proof for that.) Now, I think we all know that “survival of the fittest” especially, but not only, when applied to humans, is not a Christian idea. How about the sanctity of life? How about the fact that we’re supposed to guard, watch over, and take care of creation, rather than letting things fight against each other to see who eventually wins out, while we stand to the side and watch? Yeah, I don’t think so.
In short, if you’re talking about ideas, if the conclusion is wrong, at least one of the premises must be, and I wouldn’t swallow the other premise unless I had good reasons (from another source) to do so. With a thing, as a book, or costumes from a TV show, they can stand or fall on their own merits. Maybe, for example, GoT has a pretty, modest costume that you think would fit a character’s personality. I don’t see the harm in that. (If the costume is, you know, topless, backless, and ends above the knee, I wouldn’t say the same, of course.)
There’s my ideas, and feel free to disagree :).
You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@hope One thing that comes to mind is how Paul quoted the Cretan poet in wherever it is about evil beasts and lazy gluttons. That was a heathen poet, but Paul found one of his sayings profitable. Come to think of it, this is really basically the whole food sacrificed to idols thing all over again.
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Good point @Daeus; I hadn’t thought of it in reference to that scripture.
@hope What they said. I was thinking what they said but I couldn’t get it down on paper in time to reply. 😛
It’s like a cake that tastes really bad. The cake is terrible, but the ingredients are fine. Choose your ingredients wisely.
Also, I love the Game of Thrones music, and a lot of other music from movies that I will never watch, but that doesn’t mean I can’t listen to them. The music in itself is not sin, like what @kate-flournoy said.☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@Hope *hums thoughtfully* I think it’s a matter of personal opinion. For example, if person A has watched Game of Thrones and person B hasn’t. B might love the music for the beauty of it, but A might think it not-good because they associate it with the show itself, and therefore with bad content.
*hands you my two pence anyways*Writing Heroes ♦ Writing Hope // janemareeauthor.com.au
@hope I agree with most of what everybody else is saying (which is pretty much the same thing). However, I do understand what your “respected friend” says. The Bible does talk about offending another Christian by using something associated with something bad (the Bible uses eating meat offered to idols). You should be willing to give up what you’re doing (in this case listening to GoT music, which I adore btw) so as to not offend another Christian.
But I would say this. The Bible includes the fact that the Christian who is offended may sin as a result of your actions. For example, someone who was an avid GoT watcher then decided to stop watching it. In that case, you should not listen to GoT music (at least when they’re around, at most not at all) in order to stop them from rationalizing, “Well, Hope listens to Game of Thrones soundtracks. Seems like she’s a fan. I guess I can watch Game of Thrones just as long as I ignore the bad parts. After all, Hope is a really godly girl.”
However, if someone is just annoyed at you for listening to music that could be associated with evil. I wouldn’t say you have to give up the music. I’d simply kindly explain to them my position.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@mark-kamibaya, @jane-maree Yes, I agree. There is the association that, say, someone who watched the show and then stopped might have. Such a person probably wouldn’t be able to enjoy the music as music. And like @daeus mentioned, that is a case one would honor the ‘weaker brother’. In most cases though, as a general rule, I agree with what everyone here seems to be saying – that something like music can stand or fall on its own merits.
@northerner that is a good point, between ideas and actual ‘things’, like pictures and music. I’ve not thought about borrowing ideas much. And survival of the fittest. Hmmm… I’ll have to remember that. XDINTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
I was going to make the point that @mark-kamibaya did; I don’t think listening to that music would be wrong, but you should be willing to give it up if it would cause another person to stumble.
ENFP - "One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
@Hope I’m pretty much in agreement with the general consensus.
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@hope Yep everyone seems on point so I don’t think I’ll add.
Never mind I take that back. (hopefully I’m not repeating someone else I didn’t read it all) My thing is, you can’t avoid everything just because a part is bad, just like you can’t embrace everything because a part is good. Life is all about balance and judgments often vary between individuals and what they believe God is pleased with.
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