- This topic has 14 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks, 3 days ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hello all! For those of you who don’t know me I am Liska Boyce, YA fantasy novelist (or at least trying to be lol) and world-builder.
I have been working on a complex idea for a new novel – think at least 6 main POVS, a sentient House, and possibly the beginning of a series? – and realized that I am a plotter. Unfortunately I also realized that I’m not a plotter in the traditional sense. None of the methods other people use work for me. I did this with characters a while back, but I had to completely design my own character development system. Any suggestions on how I might figure out what to do with my plot?
"Legend-makers are echoers of the Truth, though they may look askance and tell a lie." ~ J.R.R. To
Well… the good news is, your problem is shared by many! There are so many different kinds of plots out there, that I’ve never understood why some people say there is one perfect method. There really isn’t. Most people don’t follow a strict structure and that’s normal.
What plot structures have you tried? There might be one out there for you – something you haven’t tried yet.
Regardless of what you’ve tried, I suggest learning about popular structures and understanding why they work. Once you know why they tick, you can pluck out pieces of different structures and come up with your own invention.
For example, I’ve heard of the Save the Cat plot beat, where the protagonist helps someone, and they prove their moral goodness to the reader.
I don’t use that idea for every story. But I understand its purpose. If I want my protagonist to seem like a good guy, and I want to quickly prove it, I’ll use the plot beat. But maybe I don’t care about proving his morality! Maybe he’s a morally gray guy and the reader likes him because he’s interesting, not because he’s a good guy yet. So I don’t need him to follow the Save the Cat structure.
If you understand the utility of common plot structures, you can mix and match them to your liking, or even twist them into a crazy new thing. It helps to know the “rules” before you break them. (They aren’t rules. But. You know what I mean. 😉)
Uh, yeah! That’s my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt, of course.
If you need help brainstorming a specific plot thread, or you’re out of ideas, or stuck on something – I’m happy to help!
...
Whaley’s response is lovely and says quite what I was going to, so I’ll only add:
Ugh. Yes, there are so many different styles of plotting that it gets hard to find one that will work for you. I’ve tried several and have eventually ended up with one that’s a sort of mix between three-act and beats, but using bullet points.
okay that was entirely just for me to talk about how annoying it can be to be a plotter but whatever*Disappears through the window*
A cup of tea is cheaper than therapy.
Thanks for the advice! I have spent the past five years learning as much as possible about plot structure. I’ve tried (among other things) the snowflake method, the 3-act story structure, numerous authors’ plotting structures, and pantsing. Sarra Cannon has been a recent follow for me, but her methods all use color coding and notecards and stuff. All the fluff doesn’t really work for me…. I am having INSANE trouble coming up with Act 2 pt. 1 plot points. Fun and Games should be “In which the author bangs their head against their keyboard repeatedly, types something stupid, deletes it, and starts over” 😒😅 That’s typically where my first drafts give up or fall apart. But no matter how many videos I watch or articles/books I read, NOTHING helps me come up with that stuff better, and pantsing it does NOT work.
Any tips?
Sorry for the rant… 😄
"Legend-makers are echoers of the Truth, though they may look askance and tell a lie." ~ J.R.R. To
Ah yes, the middle act, the fun and games part, the exhaustive what-are-we-even-doing-right-now pile of pain.
What I’ve recently found to help me (being myself in the final stages of plotting a novel) is to think of this part of the book as when the characters face two big obstacles to reaching their goal, and the aftermath of either successfully overcoming the obstacle, or having the obstacle overcome them. The aftermath of the second obstical will lead your character to the ✨ Midpoint ✨. (Which btw, each obstacle should lead the character closer to that Midpoint, which should be as big a twist as the Crisis–each scene after the midpoint should be impacted enough to not be able to go before it.)
Bullet points might look like:
Act 2: Onto Quest to slay dragon!
- Obstacle 1: the dragon is hard to find, and characters don’t actually know how to survive the wild, leaving them vulnerable to wild animals.
- Aftermath 1: although characters manage to escape a wolf pack, one of them is injured and half their food stores are lost.
- Obstacle 2: With dwindling food and lacking medical care, the characters have to learn how to survive on the land around them.
- Aftermath 2: The characters are becoming more competent in the quest, evidenced by successfully treating wounds and taking down a deer for food.
Midpoint: The dragon shows up and steals their deer. Slaying the dragon just turned into a matter of personal survival instead of the desire to be heroic that started them off.
I don’t know if that was helpful, but it’s been helpful for me to think of each point as a major obstical with an aftermath point.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by
.
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by .
-
This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by . Reason: obstyshoild????
A cup of tea is cheaper than therapy.
Thank you! That actually helps a ton!!!
"Legend-makers are echoers of the Truth, though they may look askance and tell a lie." ~ J.R.R. To
Hello! I am new here, but I totally get what you’re saying. My biggest struggle as an author thus far has been plot; world building and characters come naturally for me, but plot I struggle with. Over the years trying to find what sort of plotting style works for me, I’ve found a few things that help.
- Most plot structures out there are definitely a bit too specific, and targeted towards different kinds of stories. I thing I realized though, is that most follow the same general structure. Story begins. Conflict sets the story in motion. Character has a substantial. Things turn bad. Climax. Resolution. These beats are pretty simple and easily flexible to build the type of story you’d like.
- Being not strong in the plot department, but excelling in the character field, I typically shape plot beats around my characters. I’ll identify how I want the character to try and stop the conflict, and then build those plot beats around that specific character’s attempts to handle the situation. I find this works especially well when you have multiple POVs, as I do that for each one, and then the story feels fairly fleshed out.
- Ah, yes, the slog of Act II. It’s painful, I’ve gotta say. What I have found that helps the most with keeping the story interesting to the reader is having subplots that I can advance within the time of Act II. Even if the main plot is a bit slow due to story beats that have a while yet to happen, when I have subplots to fill the extra space between those plot points, they help to make the story feel like it’s still moving. These subplots can be anything from characters finding out and processing new information, a character realizing things about him or herself and growing internally, or the relationship (which doesn’t have to be romantic) between two characters changing.
Don’t know if any of this will help you–every writer is different–but I thought I’d just give the suggestions. I hope your book goes well!
There once was a snail who was depressed and would do anything for his girlfriend. Didn't end well.
Thank you very much for the advice!! I appreciate it! That’s one of the beautiful things about there being so many writers out there: everyone has different ways of doing things.
I am definitely a character-first writer, it’s just translating who my characters are and how they interact with the world into plot beats is…difficult to say the least. I have a hard time with making my plot WORK instead of feeling like it’s all disconnected. And shockingly enough I feel like the more POV characters I have, the better off it turns out 😂
"Legend-makers are echoers of the Truth, though they may look askance and tell a lie." ~ J.R.R. To
Yeah, the middle part of a story is always the weirdest part. Koshka and Quicksilver made good points. I think a huge part of it is coming up with obstacles, and then connecting them to lead to the midpoint.
Follow-up question. Is it possible that the structure isn’t the issue, but that it’s incredibly difficult to think of actual content? For example, do you get stuck at the “fun and games” because you don’t know what you want to put there?
...
Have you heard of the 5 Milestones?
It’s a very simple plotting structure, kinda like a balance between pantsing and plotting.
It’s:
- Set-up
- Inciting Incident
- 1st slap
- 2nd slap
- Climax
This way, you only need to plot out 5 key events, and then you can fill in the rest as you go.
My Music:
YouTube: @andromedacoastmusic
Learn Music production: https://www.orpheusuniversity.com/Personally, I like to do a LOT of plotting, since my stories usually are very complex from a plot standpoint and want to diminish plot holes, so I created a 10 milestone framework.
My Music:
YouTube: @andromedacoastmusic
Learn Music production: https://www.orpheusuniversity.com/Thank you so much!! I actually really like that 10 milestone framework! I have heard of the 5 milestone framework and have attempted using it before, however I then realized that it absolutely destroys my plot when I have to fill in gaps by pantsing 😅 I will definitely try this!
Is it possible that the structure isn’t the issue, but that it’s incredibly difficult to think of actual content? For example, do you get stuck at the “fun and games” because you don’t know what you want to put there?
Yup! I honestly think it’s both. I know I need to get my characters from the “doorway of no return” to the midpoint, but I have exactly ZERO clue how to do it… That leads to continual head-banging and never finishing drafts.
*mouth drops in shock*
You literally just answered the question I’ve been asking myself: why have I never finished first drafts? It’s because the middle of my book always feels forced!!! I can’t come up with stuff so I shove stuff that I feel like might fit and then roll with it. New flash: that does NOT work! So thank you for that!! (I know it seems obvious, but I literally had never thought of that before 😱😅)
So then my question becomes, how do I figure out what needs to go there? Is there a logical way to figure that out, before starting to write, that doesn’t feel like shoving random plot points in to see what clicks?
"Legend-makers are echoers of the Truth, though they may look askance and tell a lie." ~ J.R.R. To
You literally just answered the question I’ve been asking myself: why have I never finished first drafts? It’s because the middle of my book always feels forced!!!
There you have it! When I talk with people, either about my own work or theirs, that section in between the inciting incident and the midpoint is almost always the problem.
(I know it seems obvious, but I literally had never thought of that before 😱😅)
That’s okay!
So then my question becomes, how do I figure out what needs to go there? Is there a logical way to figure that out, before starting to write, that doesn’t feel like shoving random plot points in to see what clicks?
Well… okay. This is where I have my own way of figuring things out, and it may or may not work for you.
I struggle with linear planning. In other words, planning the beginning, then the character set-up, then the inciting incident, then the pinch-point, etc. One at a time, one after the other, coming up with ideas for each plot point when I’m planning it.
Let’s say I’m planning the Fun and Games section. I get bogged down because I’m trying to think of ideas that fit the criteria for Fun and Games. I have to think of ideas, because otherwise, how am I going to fill this outline?
I get super focused on what Fun and Games are supposed to be, and my brain is blank, so I blindly come up with something that might work. But I’m not a big fan of it.
I found a strategy that works better for me. This is going to sound super basic and not revolutionary at all. It’s just a slightly different way of doing things.
I drop the outline. Forget it temporarily (it’ll come back later). Instead, I start a list of anything and everything I might like to see in the story. It does not matter what I add to the list. It’s not chronological. I’m not trying to make up specific plot beats. I’m just listing cool things that might happen.
– What if I had a scene where the Hero finds a secret passageway and it leads him to a cool magical artifact
– What if the villain uses Cool Magical Ability to read the Hero’s mind, just as he finds a super secret piece of information
– What if the Hero and the Love Interest went on a movie date but the Hero is too distracted by a suspicious person there
– I want the villain to take over the Mentor’s mind at some point so the Hero has to fight his Mentor
See how random this is? Brainstorming is a process where your mind is supposed to be unfiltered. You’re free to list anything, and the more ideas you think of, the more potential content you can fit into your outline.
Don’t think about the outline while you’re generating ideas. Outlining engages the critical part of your brain. When you outline, you’re picking and choosing ideas. That’s not the same as brainstorming. You can brainstorm and outline at the same time, but it is much easier to do them seperately.
I like to sit at a coffee shop for one or two hours and brainstorm freeflow, messy ideas. I don’t attempt an outline until I’ve invented enough puzzle pieces to click together.
Does that make sense? I’m sorry if this is already basic knowledge to you, but it always helps me.
...
@whalekeeper
i know I’m not exactly part of this conversation, but i struggle with plotting and was reading your post. That is a brilliant way to do it! ThanksYou’re welcome! Our brains need room to breathe and generate ideas without rules. Sometimes we cause our problems by putting too many walls around ourselves, hehe.
...
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.