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I really found what you said quite interesting. If you want to know why I asked you about this the I came across the video by watching some stuff and was like I really want to know what ArcaneAxiom would have to say about this and if he was incorrect about anything or if Arcaneaxium might have some interesting stuff to say on it. I will have to watch your videos and draft a response to your comments (probably I will read your post again) but if I donāt respond in a few days I have a pretty busy week this week so It might take me until the weekend to finish watching, things, drafting, and writing up a response. Thanks for your response and willingness to dialogue Ā about these types of things (I love learning about different sides to stories and different relations + sub religions/denominations) and hopefully I can create a response soon.
I will read your thoughtful comment in detail soon, just saying that I am going through some emotions and don’t feel like I can touch on this stuff to the best of my abilities… š I will respond eventually.
āEverything is a mountainā
Alright, I can’t wait to hear your responses! I hope I didn’t come off as condescending in any of mine. I really enjoyed writing them, and I love these kinds of conversations we can have!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Hey, so I know I’m interjecting a bit into this conversation, but since I saw you talking about The Church of Latter Day Saints (or Mormonism) I was wondering if I could ask a few nagging questions I have about it.
Mainly about this Joseph Smith guy, and more specifically his legitimacy. Since the whole Church of Latter Day Saints hinges upon his teachings, I think it’s pretty important to make sure he was trustworthy right?
The thing is everything I read about him is pretty suspicious to the point that it is comical.Ā Like he supposedly “found” the book of Mormon, “translated it”, but then conveniently hid it again so nobody could fact check? This seems like an awfully big hole in his story, especially if he was claiming to be a prophet of God.
Jesus healed many people, performed great miracles, and had many prophets who knew him first hand write and translate his teachings during and after his death.
Joseph Smith though? Not so much. From what I’ve read about him, he was a teenager with a god-complex, who wanted to control people.
Again, I don’t know much about this Smith guy, so let me know if I’m wrong. I just had a few questions because he sounds a bit sus.
Also, I hope I don’t come across as condescending, I’m just genuinely curious and really like discussing and dissecting theology and this James fellow always seemed quite off to me lol.
Hi Kathleen! Thanks for the questions! This is a big deal for a lot of people, because we are unique in the claim of modern day prophets. There is a lot to unpack with Joseph Smith, but with an open mind, you can find answers. There’s tons upon tons of criticisms for Joseph Smith and his legitimacy, many have quick and easy explanations, and others there are many books worth of deep studyĀ to really understand what transpired. Unless there is any particular criticism you want to talk about, I’m not really going to touch on them, because that’s a hefty can of worms.
So anyways, yes, we should absolutely make sure he’s trustworthy. The thing is, people questioned Joseph from the start ever since he was 14 and had the first vision. Many people told him that he was either making it up, or that it was of the devil. So the question of how trustworthy he was is not a new thing.
To answer your questions properly though, I’ll give a summary of the events your pointing out specifically.
Regarding the Book of Mormon, yes, he found the Golden Plates on the hill Cumorah, but was commanded to not touch them until he was ready. He came back annually for about 4 years, learning much each time from the angel Maroni. Eventually he received the plates. He was strictly commanded to never neglect them, and to not show them to anyone (I understand why this is frustrating from a scholarly standpoint, but he was not to cast his pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet. This being said, it is not as you say, because the scholar will be satisfied eventually). Martin Harris was the first scribe to Joseph. Harris heard of what Joseph was doing, and explained that if it was of the devil, he wanted nothing to do with it, but if it is of God, he would do all he could to help. Joseph asked Harris to pray about it, and eventually Harris felt that he was meant to help Joseph translate. In the middle of the period of translation, Joseph copied a few characters from the plates, as well as a few of the translations of them, and gave them to Harris. Harris went to New York, and found Professor Charles Anthon. Anthon said that the characters were indeed real Egyptian, as well as many other languages, and the translations were very accurate. Anthon gave Harris a certificate that the characters and translations were real. However, before Harris left, Anthon asked how Joseph found golden plates, which Harris replied “An angel of God revealed it unto him” then Anthon asked for the certificate back, and preceded to tear it to pieces saying that there is no such thing as ministering of angels.
Now, skipping ahead many very key events, Joseph was finally commanded to set apart 3 witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. These three proclaim that they heard the voice of God, an angel came to them, and presented the plates to them, testifying of its truth, and they each held and leafed through it. After the 3 came the 8 witnesses, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jun., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sen., Hyrum Smith, Samuel H. Smith. They Proclaim that they each seen and handled the plates. All 11 of these men never denounced this claim. Now, it’s good to also note that David Whitmer later left the Church, because of frustrations with Joseph at the time, but always stood firm that he did indeed witness and handle the plates.
Now, this is only regarding the Book of Mormon, but if the Book of Mormon is true, that can only mean that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. I won’t get into the validity within the Book of Mormon specifically, but that’s a whole other direction this could go, but for the sake of relevance to Joseph Smith specifically, we’ll move on. You’ve pointed out that:
Jesus healed many people, performed great miracles, and had many prophets who knew him first hand write and translate his teachings during and after his death.
So I hope I showed that there were indeed many men who knew him first hand that witnessed of him, but Joseph actually also healed many people, and preformed great miracles also. And please don’t cry heresy here, because Prophets before Christ preformed miracles all the time as well. There are countless accounts of miracles not only from Joseph Smith, but for the members of the Church in general, and I really mean it when I say there’s a whole lot. And how much more accounts of people that met Joseph Smith personally, testifying of his goodly character. Many men and women also wrote about Joseph and what he’s done before and after his death.
Joseph Smith though? Not so much. From what Iāve read about him, he was a teenager with a god-complex, who wanted to control people.
Now, I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but there is a whole lot of sources that will tell you things like this, because there is a whole lot of hate thrown at our Church specifically, so its hard to discern between fact and fiction regarding this topic. But if you are asking me, he’s defiantly not a teenager with a god-complex, and he’s defiantly not simply wanting to control people. He faced intensive persecution ever since his first vision, being told to admit that it was false, but he would always say that he cannot deny what he knows to be true. He was once tarred and feathered by a group of men, saying they would stop if he would denounce everything he said, and he wouldn’t. The next day, he continued his teaching, though the same men were actually present to see what he did, and instead of signaling them out, he taught of loving our enemies, as he bore the scars from the previous night. That is only one example of the constant trials he faced however. Eventually, he found himself jailed (not the first time at this point), but 200 men came to the building, breaking in, as Joseph wrote his testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon. The men got in, shooting everywhere, killing everyone in the room, except one, but Joseph, they found dead, and these men, these Christian men, continued shooting his dead body in a brutal martyr.
Why would he give absolutely everything up for this, and why would so many others with him, and indeed so many that joined the Church, give up everything, indeed their very lives for this if it were false? Would a manipulative entitled man do that? What would he have hoped to gain other than persecution? He wasn’t used to getting what he wanted. He recognized his imperfections, he explained how tempted he was in so many instances, he recognized his anger. He asked God why He has forsaken him during his time in liberty jail (not the one he was martyred in), and the answer he received is that this is but a small moment, and that you are not yet as Job, but this too shall pass. Why would a deceptive entitled individual say that, unless they were not deceptive and entitled, but humble before an all knowing being.
In the end, even without any of this and so much more I haven’t even begun to touch on, I know that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, and that he did find and translate the Book of Mormon, and brought about the restoration of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that’s a bit direct, but this is truly what I believe, not because of evidence, but because I have studied the Book of Mormon myself, and I have taken time to pray about the truths it taught. I can say that I asked of God, and that he did personally confirm it unto me. You will know by their fruits whether something be good or evil, and the fruits of Joseph Smith has brought many millions of people closer to a Savior who loves them and gave His life for them.
Sorry if this is starting to come off as preachy, but I am only speaking what I believe, dare I say know, is true. That being said, this is not to convert you or anything, I am simply being honest. You many read this, and then go elsewhere, and find a hundred things “wrong” with what I’ve said, and this will always be the case, so I simply say, be careful what you read, think of the fruits it bears, and “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him…” James 1:5.
Thank you for the questions! There is so much to unpack in this topic, and we haven’t even begun to scratch the surface. Please let me know if there is anything else your curious about!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I don’t mind talking about controversial issues, first of all. I agree with you, I believe homosexuality/trans-gender stuff is anti-Biblical. I also agree that we shouldn’t shove them away because of their lifestyle. God does love them and Christians do need to work on the way they approach this issue. Of course, this is kind of a new thing we’re dealing with. Beforehand all this was kept in the closet and while maybe practiced, wasn’t celebrated. Now we have people proudly displaying their lifestyle and trying to make us say it’s okay. I believe we can’t ignore it, no matter how much we want to, nor can we say it’s okay. But the church/Christians needs to realize these people have souls too and that they should be treated as people. Speaking for myself, I don’t think that if someone in my church confessed that they had homosexual feelings, that the pastor congregants would try to help him or her. I think they’d ostracize the person and/or rage at them. I wish I didn’t have to say that, but it’s true and it’s wrong. If we are going to reach anyone, it must be through love and the view to help the person, not make them conform.
I didn’t know about those facts you threw out about the LGBTQ+ community. You know, you’ve kind of got a unique perspective and position concerning this. I would love to state my views about this more, but I feel like I can’t because I don’t know the different opinions, beliefs, and reasons you just stated. You might want to consider writing about it; it might make a difference in many people’s mindset. Just a thought ….
This girl is armed with books, coffee, and writing accoutrements!
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This forum is so interesting š¤©
I love seeing others’ beliefs. Very interesting and thought-provoking <3
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@folith-feolin I certainly agree that it is oftentimes really good to get to know the person (regardless of what kind of sin they’re committing) before trying to try to bring them to Christ.
I also think it’s important for all of us to remember that, though we are called to bring the Gospel and help lead people to Christ, it’s not our job to necessarily change people, as only God can change and redeem the lost.
I guess what I’ve always believed is that God loves the sinner, but not the sin, and we should be the same way.
I think we (all of us!) often forget that what we need when talking to people in any kind of sinful lifestyle is a mix of truth and love, and that speaking the truth isĀ love, but that we need to speak it in a loving way.
And that applies to all sin, not just one kind of sin!
(and all of us were sinners at one point in time, ‘for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.’ ~Romans 3:23)
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We all sin, and I think sometimes (i’m guilty of this too!) that we forget that.
But God’s grace is perfected in our mistakes, and because we are ALL sinners, we can meet others as individuals who are all in need of Salvation.
Just a couple thoughts I wanted to share <3
@freedomwriter76
Great comments Freedom! Human compassion has been weaponized in our day, making us think we have to make a choice between truth and love. If you don’t affirm someone’s way of life, knowing that it strays from truth, you are therefore hateful. If you do affirm them, then your lying to yourself, denying what you know is true. That is the world the adversary wants, a world of division. The thing is that truth and love are inseparable, to deny love, is to deny truth, and vice versa. We as Christians need to realize this, we need to do everything in our power to be loving peacemakers, but also firm truthkeepers. We must speak truth in a loving voice, to lift up, to encourage. We should teach that through Christ, you can be more than just yourself, but you can instead be your best self, a strong loving truth to fight the confusion of our day.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Thank you for your response!
I must admit that I have limited knowledge about Mormonism and its principles and history, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and perspective on the subject.
I guess the whole concept of Mormonism is hard for me to grasp because it just doesn’t make sense to me on a fundamental level. God sent His beloved son to share the gospel and bring hope, salvation, and healing to the world. His story and teachings were eventually compiled into the Bible, along with the ancient texts of the Old Testament. This seems to be a straightforward narrative to me.
However, the Book of Mormon introduces a new element that complicates matters. It raises questions for me, such as why, almost 2,000 years after Christ, God suddenly decided, “Hold up! Wait a minute! I think I forgot to include a few things in the scriptures!” and then sent them on gold plates to the Americas, written in ancient Egyptian of all languages.
So, my questions would be: Why this sudden addition out of nowhere? And what do these additions entail? Do they contribute anything meaningful? Do they contradict the teachings of the Bible?
Now, I’d like to address some of your reasoning for why Joseph Smith is trustworthy.
“After the 3 came the 8 witnesses, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jun., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sen., Hyrum Smith, Samuel H. Smith. They Proclaim that they each seen and handled the plates.”
This is interesting! Definitely something I want to look into more. Did each of the men know Egyptian and check if the translation was correct or did they just see the gold plates? Because I’ve seen sources state that the plates did indeed exist and they were written in Egyptian, however, what was written on them weren’t what Joseph translated.
There’s many other questions I have about Joseph Smith, but I might save them for later so this post doesn’t go on for too long lol.
“Joseph actually also healed many people, and preformed great miracles also.”
I can totally get behind this. Anybody can perform great miracles through faith and I’ve seen this in my own life. Faith can move mountains.
However, just because someone performs miracles doesn’t mean they are without fault or completely genuine in everything they say and do.
“Why would he give absolutely everything up for this, and why would so many others with him, and indeed so many that joined the Church, give up everything, indeed their very lives for this if it were false?”
Maybe they truly believed in what they were preaching, maybe they had other motives I’m not sure. But the popularity and dedication of a group do not necessarily validate the values and principles they believe in. For example, there are thousands of people who strongly and adamantly believe that the Earth is flat. Flat-earthers are somewhat popular and fiercely dedicated to this belief. However, due to the extensive scientific evidence, we know that the Earth is indeed round. It doesn’t matter how many people follow or like Daniel Shenton, his views on Astronomy are groundless.
Nevertheless, I acknowledge that Joseph faced intense opposition for his beliefs, which is not something flat earthers experience. However, being persecuted for one’s beliefs does not automatically make those beliefs true either. To take a hot topic as of late for an example, Kanye West, a popular and successful rapper and music artist, faced outrage, pushback, and lost many fans, brand deals, and even his family when he defended Hitler and made anti-Semitic remarks.
He sacrificed a lot for stating his beliefs, but that doesn’t make those beliefs true.
So even if Joseph genuinely believed he was a prophet of God and was not intentionally deceiving people, it doesn’t prove the legitimacy of his claims.
(I know the examples I made with Flat-Earthers and Kanye are not perfect comparisons to Joseph Smith for a multitude of reasons, but I hope they still get my point across. They were the first examples to come to mind when writing this and they are still currently culturally relevant.)
You mentioned that your personal experience of asking God and receiving confirmation is a valid reason to believe something, and I can totally understand that. Most of what any of us believe comes from personal experience. How could you ask someone to do otherwise? It was something real they experienced and felt.
However, where this reasoning becomes uncertain is when you consider people of other religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or even New Age spiritualism. They also have deep personal and spiritual experiences that reinforce their beliefs in their respective religions.
If we consider anecdotal evidence as the ultimate factor, either all religions somehow coexist, or not all of these people’s experiences reflect reality.
Obviously, not all religions can coexist since their teachings often contradict one another, and many even explicitly warn against other religions. So, the only other option is to acknowledge that not all anecdotal evidence is legitimate and should always be approached with skepticism.
For me the countless spiritual and divine experiences that people from various cultures and religions have on a daily basis, combined with the harmony observed in the universe, I see compelling evidence for the existence of an intelligent being behind creation.
Now who or what that being is, how they think we should live our lives, or even if they have an opinion on how we should live our lives, is still up to debate. A debate that has being raging since the beginning of time.
Many people desperately want a clear-cut answer to this debate. Understandably so because they feel as though their eternal salvation is on the line. What could be more pressing than that?
The problem arises when individuals take advantage of those who looking for answers.
Power-hungry individuals recognize the market of people seeking guidance and direction in their lives. They exploit this by claiming to possess an infallible understanding of the word of God. They assert their exclusive knowledge of who God is, what He commands, and denounce anyone who holds a different belief as being influenced by the devil and a liar. Such manipulation allows them to exert control and authority over others.
We see this dynamic play-out countless times throughout history…
With thousands of manipulative people like this throughout countless generations, each claiming to know the one and only truth, yet each preaching a different song, it is no wonder that there is so much division within and between different congregations and religions.
This is why I have much skepticism towards people like Joseph Smith. It’s so easy to deceive and manipulate people especially when you are claiming be a mouthpiece for God.
I love these kinds of conversationsš
I guess the whole concept of Mormonism is hard for me to grasp because it just doesnāt make sense to me on a fundamental level. God sent His beloved son to share the gospel and bring hope, salvation, and healing to the world. His story and teachings were eventually compiled into the Bible, along with the ancient texts of the Old Testament. This seems to be a straightforward narrative to me.
However, the Book of Mormon introduces a new element that complicates matters. It raises questions for me, such as why, almost 2,000 years after Christ, God suddenly decided, āHold up! Wait a minute! I think I forgot to include a few things in the scriptures!ā and then sent them on gold plates to the Americas, written in ancient Egyptian of all languages.
So, my questions would be: Why this sudden addition out of nowhere? And what do these additions entail? Do they contribute anything meaningful? Do they contradict the teachings of the Bible?
Yeah, I get that. I’ve pondered on this myself before. My response though would be simply that it is how God intended it from the beginning, it wasn’t out of the blue. The beginning of the Book of Mormon is about 600 BC. If anything, I don’t think it would be “Hold up, I missed something…” it would be “Not again, you guys missed the point…”. It may make the narrative a little more complex, however, it isn’t the first time such a sequence of events have occurred, within said narrative. Moses gave the 10 commandments for Israel, he originally tried giving them a higher law, but they showed that they could not worthily live by it, so he gave a lower law they would understand. Eventually, Christ came and fulfilled the law of Moses, asking us to live by the higher law, His law, for real this time. However, we crucified Him, then we killed His prophets, losing the authority He restored on the earth. We showed once again that we do not yet fully understand His law. His followers afterwards did their best to preserve His gospel, and thank goodness for that, but in the end, we are imperfect, thus in our imperfect attempts, we have tainted His word for 2000 years of copying by hand, translating, and modifying for good or bad purpose. He preserved His word for the most part, yes, but a restoration was needed to bring back authority, and modern day prophets and apostles to teach His children, just like how Christ came back and restored His church when the law of Moses was tainted by the Scribes and Pharisees. This is my best personal answer to that, but in the end, I sometimes have asked myself similar questions, and in the end, I would ask ‘who am I to tell the Lord how to do His job?’ Life is messy, and He intended it to be messy, so that we would have to rely on our own faith to follow Him, even though we don’t understand everything.
As for your actual questions concerning the idea of additional scripture, I again say that it was His intention from the beginning, and you can find it mentioned in prophesy given in the Bible believe it or not, I specifically think of Isaiah, and I can point out those particular chapters and verses if your interested. That being said, you could take those scriptures to mean anything depending on where your coming from, but that’s all the more reason why a restoration was needed in my mind. As for what they entail and contribute, the answer is long story short, a lot, and I would love to get into all the different things, but I’ll hold off for now. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, not contradicting the Bible or anything, but proving and reaffirming the truths it already teaches. It also clarifies many teachings, and yes, it does add a few things. These things we believe to always have been in the Lords true doctrine, it simply was lost over the 2000 year telephone game, as well as a few other things that was not yet mentioned, because it was not yet needed. If your interested in the specifics of what those particular truths are, we can get into them, but there’s a lot, so we’d probably need to focus in on just one or two, but I’m happy to answer any questions!
Alright, back to Joseph Smith:
This is interesting! Definitely something I want to look into more. Did each of the men know Egyptian and check if the translation was correct or did they just see the gold plates? Because Iāve seen sources state that the plates did indeed exist and they were written in Egyptian, however, what was written on them werenāt what Joseph translated.
Non of them knew Egyptian, no. Many people simply deny the existence of the plates, so the witnesses of the 3 and 8 is one of many points against that notion. As far as the translation being incorrect, the plates were only seen by these 11, Joseph, and a few other accounts of potential sneak peeks, after the translation was completed, it was taken back to Maroni, so it would be hard for anyone to really determine that what was translated to be incorrect. I’ll also point out again Professor Charles Anthon, Harris gave him some of the written characters, and their translations. Quoting Joseph Smith-History, Harris said:
“Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters.”
Now this is just one man, a leaned man, but a man, but that’s all we got for an account for how accurate the translation is. There is actually something about that when Martin Harris was Joseph’s scribe, one of the many big, key events I skipped over. I’ll summarize it really quick.
Harris actually wanted to show the current translated manuscripts to his wife. Joseph prayed, and the answer he received was no. Harris persisted, asking again, and the answer was no, but by the third time, the Lord finally said yes under strict conditions of how they would be shown, who they would be shown to, and when they would be returned. Harris took the manuscripts, and a few months later when he returned, he eventually with much reluctance admitted to Joseph’s family that he lost them. Both Joseph and Harris wept, Joseph saying “I have lost my soul”. Joseph felt like the Lord was silent for a while afterwards. Eventually however, Oliver Cowdery came along, and the Lord said that Oliver was Joseph’s next scribe. Joseph and Oliver were commanded not to re-translate the lost manuscripts, but instead to continue where they left off, because wicked men would alter the lost manuscripts and come out and claim that Joseph found these manuscripts and was changing them, debunking his claims as a prophet. Why did the Lord let this happen? He knew from the beginning that it would happen, and was ready for it, because He knew Harris wouldn’t quite, and He knew that both Joseph and Harris would learn from the experience, to accept the Lord’s word when it is first spoken. Anyways, those lost manuscripts are truly lost, but the Lord said that they could have been used to say that Joseph didn’t translate the Egyptian correctly, so perhaps that is related to that source you mentioned, but I wouldn’t know.
Thereās many other questions I have about Joseph Smith, but I might save them for later so this post doesnāt go on for too long lol.
There is indeed a lot to unpack with him, but I’m happy to answer any questions XD
I can totally get behind this. Anybody can perform great miracles through faith and Iāve seen this in my own life. Faith can move mountains.
However, just because someone performs miracles doesnāt mean they are without fault or completely genuine in everything they say and do.
Yep! Totally agree. I’ve personally witnessed so many great works of the Lord, and He can do these works through imperfect men, such as Joseph Smith. Joseph recognized he was imperfect, I mentioned this already. He is not without fault in his life, and he made many mistakes during his time leading the Church but no man except for Christ was. Every Prophet before Christ was imperfect, so would every prophet after.
That being said, I would say that anyone that is truly sinister in their intent would not be able to preform real miracles, though they could perhaps make it look like they can through much deception. Even if they could, I feel like that would greatly devalue the works of Christ, His works with His words were proof of His divinity. If anyone with mal intent could do the same, then how could we trust Christ for who He is? That would be a double standard.
Maybe they truly believed in what they were preaching, maybe they had other motives Iām not sure. But the popularity and dedication of a group do not necessarily validate the values and principles they believe in. For example, there are thousands of people who strongly and adamantly believe that the Earth is flat. Flat-earthers are somewhat popular and fiercely dedicated to this belief. However, due to the extensive scientific evidence, we know that the Earth is indeed round. It doesnāt matter how many people follow or like Daniel Shenton, his views on Astronomy are groundless.
Nevertheless, I acknowledge that Joseph faced intense opposition for his beliefs, which is not something flat earthers experience. However, being persecuted for oneās beliefs does not automatically make those beliefs true either. To take a hot topic as of late for an example, Kanye West, a popular and successful rapper and music artist, faced outrage, pushback, and lost many fans, brand deals, and even his family when he defended Hitler and made anti-Semitic remarks.
He sacrificed a lot for stating his beliefs, but that doesnāt make those beliefs true.
So even if Joseph genuinely believed he was a prophet of God and was not intentionally deceiving people, it doesnāt prove the legitimacy of his claims.
(I know the examples I made with Flat-Earthers and Kanye are not perfect comparisons to Joseph Smith for a multitude of reasons, but I hope they still get my point across. They were the first examples to come to mind when writing this and they are still currently culturally relevant.)
This is very true, and I’m glad that you recognize that these aren’t perfect comparisons, but I do see your point. However I would point out a few key things that I feel make the point as a whole fall flat. I personally love C.S. Lewis’s trilemma: Christ is a liar, Christ is delusional, or Christ is really the Son of God. I’m sure your quite familiar, so I’ll get to my point. We can apply a similar trilemma to Joseph Smith: Joseph was a fraud, Joseph believed himself to be a prophet but was delusional, or Joseph is a true prophet of God. If Joseph was really a liar and a fraud, we would see that in his fruits, there would be subtleties in his writings that would talk more about him, and less of our Savior. He would not have so openly recognize his faults, especially if he wanted people to think him a prophet of God. He would also have to have made up the Book of Mormon, which is also problematic. So maybe Joseph simply believed he was a prophet, dying for what he believed in, but still ultimately in vain, because it was all a delusion. This we can quickly determine to not be the case for a number of reasons, but one in particular is the Book of Mormon, if Joseph was delusional, then that means the Book of Mormon is false, but that he still has a testimony of it. However, if he believes in it, but he is the one that made it up, the only logical thing we can think of from there is that he did fined real golden plates, then made up a random story with them, thinking that it was God putting the thoughts in his head. The big issue with this is Joseph had nothing more than a 3th grade education his whole life, creating such a large, complex, nuanced work that teaches deep doctrinal truths that go hand and hand with the Bible, it doesn’t really make sense for a hallucination. We can double back to the first idea, that Joseph was truly fraudulent, but we can use the same points, he didn’t really have the education level for such a work as the Book of Mormon. If he lied about that, well, there’s many many more things that make that hard to believe, there’s even things we know now, that we know that Joseph wouldn’t have known about in his era, yet it was found in the Book of Mormon. These things make it harder and harder to explain away, leaving us with the third option, that Joseph is honestly and truly a prophet of God. There could be ways in which Joseph was fraudulent, but I find it hard to believe when you get into the nitty gritty, though I understand that many others feel the opposite way, because of the nuances and controversy of the topic.
You mentioned that your personal experience of asking God and receiving confirmation is a valid reason to believe something, and I can totally understand that. Most of what any of us believe comes from personal experience. How could you ask someone to do otherwise? It was something real they experienced and felt.
However, where this reasoning becomes uncertain is when you consider people of other religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or even New Age spiritualism. They also have deep personal and spiritual experiences that reinforce their beliefs in their respective religions.
If we consider anecdotal evidence as the ultimate factor, either all religions somehow coexist, or not all of these peopleās experiences reflect reality.
Obviously, not all religions can coexist since their teachings often contradict one another, and many even explicitly warn against other religions. So, the only other option is to acknowledge that not all anecdotal evidence is legitimate and should always be approached with skepticism.
For me the countless spiritual and divine experiences that people from various cultures and religions have on a daily basis, combined with the harmony observed in the universe, I see compelling evidence for the existence of an intelligent being behind creation.
Now we’re really getting into it. This is an excellent thing for everyone to realize. How I personally feel about this is that while truth is objective, and if there is a true religion if any, truth can still be found everywhere. We make no claim to hold the only thing that will cause people to feel the Spirit, nor do we make the claim that we are the only ones that can feel the Spirit. Confirmation comes to those who find those little grains of truth in their religions. That being said, there is indeed emotional bias, which can take a variety of forms. These are real things that make it the claim to truth difficult. Regardless, I feel that it is only by the Spirit that the truth can be discerned. God gave us wonderful minds that make excellent servants, but they are terrible masters, for they doom us to failure if we seek to discern truth without the Spirit. Yes, many religions may make similar claims of conviction, but we can’t remove that factor, as it is fundamental to our relationship with God. I still believe that God will reveal the truth by the Spirit, but as to how the Spirit is communicated we believe to be a very personal thing, but we have lots of particular views I would be happy to get into concerning the nature of feeling the Spirit, how you know it’s the Spirit, ect. One main thing though is that you will simply know by their fruits. Test how you think you feel the Spirit, and see if it bears good or bad fruits, for only good can beget good, and evil can beget evil.
Many people desperately want a clear-cut answer to this debate. Understandably so because they feel as though their eternal salvation is on the line. What could be more pressing than that?
The problem arises when individuals take advantage of those who looking for answers.
Power-hungry individuals recognize the market of people seeking guidance and direction in their lives. They exploit this by claiming to possess an infallible understanding of the word of God. They assert their exclusive knowledge of who God is, what He commands, and denounce anyone who holds a different belief as being influenced by the devil and a liar. Such manipulation allows them to exert control and authority over others.
We see this dynamic play-out countless times throughout historyā¦
With thousands of manipulative people like this throughout countless generations, each claiming to know the one and only truth, yet each preaching a different song, it is no wonder that there is so much division within and between different congregations and religions.
This is why I have much skepticism towards people like Joseph Smith. Itās so easy to deceive and manipulate people especially when you are claiming be a mouthpiece for God.
Very very true words. But I hope I’ve made it clear that Joseph wasn’t a power hungry individual, if he was, he had a odd way of going about it, and really got the short end of the stick. The funny thing about what you said though, is I feel that it points to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints even more. Yes, we hold claim that this is indeed the true restoration of Jesus Christ’s true Church on earth, having restored authority, prophets and apostles, but the thing is, the Church does not condemn people for there beliefs, in fact, something the current prophet President Russell M. Nelson specifically said, that any church, indeed, any religion is better than non at all. We fight for religious freedom. The weird thing about what you’ve said is that it feels like while we say any church is better than no church, many other churches say, go to any church except this one, I reference the pastor guy Folith-Feolin linked earlier on this forum. The amount of times our church specifically has been referenced as of the devil and a bunch of liars really is comical. We do also admit, again, that who we recognize as prophets of God to be imperfect men, who have said wrong things in the past, yet God uses them as imperfect tools.
The very fact that there is so much division and contention amongst religions, again, is exactly why a true restoration is needed. This is the whole point. So many men, creeds, religions, even cults exist in these days because we lost the authority Christ restored. Men claiming to have the truth, claiming authority because they are holding a Bible, yet the men on the other side of the street are also claiming authority and truth because they are holding a Bible, yet they are saying a completely different thing. This is why God set up a true restoration, not of man, but of Him. Not to slander on how other churches do things, I know the majority of them are honestly trying to do the Lord’s will, including the Pastor from earlier, but to be fair, your the one that pointed it out.
I understand that it is hard to believe that this Church is any different than all the others, but then again… can it be ok that we are like the others, true Bible believing, gospel living, followers of Christ as some put it? True Christians? Men and women that will fight for the truths we all collectively hold, that Christ is our Savior, and suffered the ultimate sacrifice for all the sins of the world, and it is only by Him that man can be saved?
Thanks for your awesome comments Kathleen! I really love these kinds of conversations, and I’m glad that we can have them in such a kind and loving manor. The things you’ve pointed out really strengthen my faith, and I hope they strengthen yours as well. I can’t wait to hear your response!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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Human compassion has been weaponized in our day, making us think we have to make a choice between truth and love. If you donāt affirm someoneās way of life, knowing that it strays from truth, you are therefore hateful. If you do affirm them, then your lying to yourself, denying what you know is true.
Exactly!!
But there is no choice between truth and love, because to speak the truth is to show love, and to show love is to speak the truth, because if we do not speak the truth, people will believe in the lie, the lie that will only lead them to destruction.
That is the world the adversary wants, a world of division. The thing is that truth and love are inseparable, to deny love, is to deny truth, and vice versa. We as Christians need to realize this, we need to do everything in our power to be loving peacemakers, but also firm truthkeepers. We must speak truth in a loving voice, to lift up, to encourage. We should teach that through Christ, you can be more than just yourself, but you can instead be yourĀ bestĀ self, a strong loving truth to fight the confusion of our day.
Amen.
I think in today’s world, especially in the American church, it’s often forgotten that though, yes, Jesus loved the sinners, it’s not like he told them to “go and sin more”, in fact, he many times told them to “go and sin no more”. (like with the story of the man at the pool in Bethesda; ‘Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, āSee, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”‘ -John 5:14)
Jesus never condoned the sin, whilst he also never hated on the sinner. It was a perfect balance of love, forgiveness and mercy, yet holiness.
And division has always been and always will be the enemy’s biggest tool against God’s people, that is for certain.
I love these conversations as well!
I wanted to make sure I didn’t ghost you and just let you know that I’m planning on and looking forward to writing a response very soon, but I’ve been a bit offline as of late since I got a new job.
So yeah, I look forward to continuing the conversation! I’ll be back soon with many questions so be prepared, haha.
Thanks for letting me know! Certainty eases my conscience from wondering if anything was wrong. People have lives outside of the internet, but that doesn’t keep the mind from thinkingš Though that should probably be a reason to stay away from the internet more often.
I’m looking forward to it as well, and I’ll be waiting patiently for the inquisitive flood to come. Good luck with your new job!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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