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Yeah, determinism vs free will is definitely important. If you’d like to see below, I would recommend reading Romans 9, concerning that area of theology. As for the idea of God’s Word being subtly changed over time, that goes into the territory of, ‘is God’s Word infallible or not?’ If you mean translation-wise, yes, there are many different versions, and those can be changed over time. But as for the original Hebrew/Greek, I think it remains largely the same. My dad can elaborate on that, if you would like a clearer answer.
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@everyone
Well, looks like I’m the one with a hot take… But I personally believe that God did in fact harden Pharaoh’s heart.
First off, God does say before the plagues start, to Moses, that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart. He makes a point of saying He is the one who is doing the hardening, and that meaning remains in the Hebrew.
You guys have mentioned that God is loving, and it doesn’t make sense for him to harden anyone’s heart. I disagree with that, because it is clear in the Bible that some people will not end up in heaven, and that God is the one who decides who goes to heaven, and who does not.
On that second point, the hardening and/or softening of hearts, I would recommend reading Romans 9. Paul specifically talks about Pharaoh in that passage. And I quote, starting at verse 14:
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”
That last sentence is the clearest. God is the one with the choice, not us. I believe us Christians have no right to be saved, because we are sinners. Yes, God is merciful, but he is not automatically merciful to anyone. We deserve judgement and punishment. It makes MORE sense for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart then to soften it.
I think we Christians are used to picturing God as love. Which he is. But he is also pure justice and anger and jealousy. This is said loads of times in the Bible.
Now, why would he harden Pharaoh’s heart?
He is actually still acting out of love for his people. By hardening Pharaoh’s heart, and directly telling the people of Israel he would do so, he was proving to them that he is all powerful, even more powerful than Pharaoh. The pharaoh, in ancient Egypt, is known religiously to have a pure heart, the heart of a god, and should be worshiped because of that. By taking control of Pharaoh’s desires and emotions, God was essentially stabbing Egypt in the heart, so to speak.
This all leads up to taking control of Israel, and leading them to the promised land, following the grand meta-narrative.
So in conclusion, God absolutely has the ability to harden people’s hearts, he has the right to harden people’s hearts, and he does it for a good reason – to save his few chosen.
– Whaley (aka, Pastor’s Kid)
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
Yes, I pulled out a few references from my dad’s bookshelves for a mini-study on this topic XD
KaPeefers 'til we're old and gray...
just wondering what your thoughts are on this. (note if you don’t want to watch a 35 min video were a christian theologian tries to use the bible and history to disprove the Church of the Latter Day Saints that makes sense. So you don’t have to respond. The current discourse just made me want to know your thoughts on the video below)
hmm interesting discussion in terms of technology, schooling, christians.
So in terms of technology I agree with the arguments previously mentioned by thearcaneaxiom keilah-h and orangearmadillo. In addition though technically has been very helpful in the spread of the gospel in areas that are hostile toward christianity.
Trigger warning: In the rest of my post I will discuss things that relate to the LGBTQ+ community if for some reason that would be triggering to you please skip this next section.
So first off I think I will just say that I believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality and gender transitioning as sins. In addition espousing since we are in lew of pride month remember that they are people and deserve love and respect. They are no different than any others caught up in sinful lifestyles.
With those PSAs out of the way I would like to say that the reason that this is part of my response to you is because my school has a large LGBTQ+ population (in addition to a large non christian population) so I interact with them a lot. So here is some things based off of talking to them, reading the bible, and research.
1. So according to a few study’s I read it is estimated that 1 out of every 6 children in present day America (meaning people currently under that age of 18) will experience some sort of questioning of their gender at some point in their life. (for example this could mean having a crush on someone of the same sex or questioning wether they were born the correct sex etc.)
2. In a lot of present day churches then the most common messages from the pulpit (so to speak) on Homosexuality and Transgenderism are:
1. Nothing🦗
2. Homosexuality and Transgenderism are bad
3. Homosexuality or/and Transgenderism is ok
Now to talk and dissect these in light of what was mentioned above starting with least nuanced to most nuanced. In the case of Message 3 the message is just incorrect false teaching and can lead to people believing the wrong things and living lives if sin. Now for message 1, message 1 can be noted as the easy way out simply don’t mention this difficult topic and let it play out on its own. This generally leads people to one of two conclusions depending on the major influences around them. “Homosexuality and/or Transgenderism is bad but I don’t know why scripturaly” or “Homosexuality and/or Transgenderism is ok because I have never heard anything that says it isn’t”
In case of Message 2 things can be quite nuanced. This message can range from being very bad (for example if no scriptural reasons are provided to back it up (giving a similar conclusion to message 1) or if it is presented without gentleness and love in which case it may provide the message that Gay, Bi, and Transgender people are not deserving of Gods love, or,to the outside world, that Christians are crazy Homophobes/Transphobes. However if it is presented that Homosexuality and Transgenderism are wrong with gentleness and love then that is the correct message and can potentially move those groups to christianity.
Now back to schooling. Combining these points I have seen these things happen.
so one thing I have seen and heard of happening (which leads to people joining the LGBTQ+ community) a lot is were a person who experiences homosexual desires does not mention these desires to other for various reasons potentially linked to something mentioned previously. They also may or may not understand these desires. Then at some point the persons beliefs are challenged through or in relation to gender identity. This may happen multiple times but eventually one of the things below happens:
an the cases above in which they do not see anything wrong with homosexuality and christianity they become homosexual.
In the case were they see something wrong with homosexuality but have nothing to support it then in most cases do to their lack of evidence they end up revoking their faith in favour of homosexuality. Additionally a similar thing can happen were a straight person revokes their faith in favour of being accepting of homosexuality.
Additionally one thing that makes it harder to evangelise to these populations is that a lot of them already are very intelligent and know about christianity. Typically though this comes this comes in two forms (or a combination) in which they all know point one but know one or both of the point two’s:
1. In christianity a jew names Jesus died on a cross and rose again so that people could go to heaven.
2. “I know about christianity from history and it has been helpful to humanity but also people have used it to do some pretty bad things.”
(this is kind of like the historical broad scope of the bad unfaithful hypocritical christian thing mentioned earlier.)
Or
2. “Christianity is Homophobic/Transphobic”
(This generally stems from them seeing instances of people who claim the name of christ being homophobic ie the target scenario you may have seen in the news recently)
Trigger warnings over
Anyway those are some thought feel free to ask me to elaborate.
Yeah, determinism vs free will is definitely important. If you’d like to see below, I would recommend reading Romans 9, concerning that area of theology. As for the idea of God’s Word being subtly changed over time, that goes into the territory of, ‘is God’s Word infallible or not?’ If you mean translation-wise, yes, there are many different versions, and those can be changed over time. But as for the original Hebrew/Greek, I think it remains largely the same. My dad can elaborate on that, if you would like a clearer answer.
Right, of course God’s word is infallible, but as it has been spoken by the mouths of man over many generations, it can become more word of man than God, and man’s word is very fallible, in fact, there are whole books that may have been true, but were taken away and considered not cannon. This organization was done by man. I agree that on the grand scale, we can be pretty confident in the truth, however it’s many of the small details that can be deeply problematic. Sometimes this is simply misinterpretation of the reader, not understanding the full picture, but how much may actually be simply contradiction by the faults of man?
As for your other points, you subscribe to Calvinism then, right? It does feel like a hot take to me personally, however I can respect the view because determinism is is a annoying topic to deal with, and Calvinists simply embrace it to eliminate all the nuance. That being said, I would still like to say a few things in return.
First off, God does say before the plagues start, to Moses, that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart. He makes a point of saying He is the one who is doing the hardening, and that meaning remains in the Hebrew.
It is hard to be so certain though because of the complexity of language and translation of meaning. Also, Ancient Hebrew is a dead language, and it’s really hard to accurately determine what the text was meaning even when we have a working translation, because languages do not map to one another in bijection. It is not unbelievable that ‘and I will harden the pharaoh’s heart’ was once ‘and I know the pharaoh’s heart will be hardened’, even in a single translation. Regardless, it does say that, and it should be taken seriously, and we should humbly inquire of the Lord if it indeed is true.
You guys have mentioned that God is loving, and it doesn’t make sense for him to harden anyone’s heart. I disagree with that, because it is clear in the Bible that some people will not end up in heaven, and that God is the one who decides who goes to heaven, and who does not.
If that is what that implies to you, then I will fight for your freedom to believe that. To respond though, obviously it is clear that some will go to Heaven, and some will not, yes. But does that have to mean that God pre determined our end destination, could it not also possibly be that God decides our end destination based off of how we chose to live our life here in mortality? Either way fulfills the clear role that God is the one who decides who does and doesn’t make it.
If our end destinations are already completely predetermined, then what is God’s purposes in placing us here? Are we His toys? Are we a big game to Him, and He is the one who has Hitter kill thousands of Jews, just because? What do these things accomplish? If this is true, can we really trust God at all? Why should we worship Him, if we can’t even trust that He has our best interest in heart? How do you know he doesn’t already have plans for your destruction in his pre determined game? These questions are just what comes immediately to mind, and I’m not asking them to attack, but to inquire, so please don’t feel threatened, as these are simply the things one would have to think about if following the line of thought you currently are.
On that second point, the hardening and/or softening of hearts, I would recommend reading Romans 9. Paul specifically talks about Pharaoh in that passage. And I quote, starting at verse 14:
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”
That last sentence is the clearest. God is the one with the choice, not us. I believe us Christians have no right to be saved, because we are sinners. Yes, God is merciful, but he is not automatically merciful to anyone. We deserve judgement and punishment. It makes MORE sense for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart then to soften it.
My response is similar with a little more extrapolating. When I read this passage, here’s what I think: we cannot demand mercy from God, because He is in control, and has a perfect understanding, does that then imply total determinism and predestination, I still don’t think so. Does it not work that He makes judgements from whether or not we choose Him humbly? I know you will likely quickly emphasize “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” in response to this, and the thing is that I totally agree. We do not command God. It is His will, not ours that we would be saved, but does it not also work that His choice factors in how we use our will in this life? I want to make it clear here that I don’t believe that it is by works that man is saved, but only by the Grace of Jesus Christ, however Christ gave us commandments constantly to live by, so these are works, but they are not for the purpose of our salvation, but for the purpose of learning to be heavenly by living by a higher law, His law, otherwise we wouldn’t want heaven.
Now of course we all believe that non of us deserve salvation. We are sinners by default. Obviously God doesn’t give mercy to anyone. We’re not saying that it makes more sense that God would soften Pharaoh’s heart. We’re saying Pharaoh made his own choice, which determines his eventual fate. This reminds me of Matthew 18:21-35, quote:
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 ¶ Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
What I’m pointing out with these verses is that the Lord did have mercy, but when His servant did not pay that mercy forward, his mercy was forfeit. It is a condition, a two way contract that which we live by with the Lord. If we forgive one another, the Lord will forgive us. Now what you might say in response is that God simply chose who would be forgiving, and those who would not be. My response, believe as you will, and I will fight for your freedom to believe that.
I think we Christians are used to picturing God as love. Which he is. But he is also pure justice and anger and jealousy. This is said loads of times in the Bible.
Yep, this is true. However, He is perfect in His love. He acts out the law of justice in anger as needs be, but if He really is all these things in the way you suggest with a deterministic reality, with Him being love, anger, justice, jealousy all at once a whoever He likes or dislikes, is just another way of saying He is chaos, despite that being contradictory with each of those alone. Now, maybe that is what you believe, that He is basically Entropy given sentience of some sort, in which case, alright, if not, if your comfortable doing so, could you maybe elaborate on your beliefs on who God really is then, if He really just predetermined our destinations?
Now, why would he harden Pharaoh’s heart?
He is actually still acting out of love for his people. By hardening Pharaoh’s heart, and directly telling the people of Israel he would do so, he was proving to them that he is all powerful, even more powerful than Pharaoh. The pharaoh, in ancient Egypt, is known religiously to have a pure heart, the heart of a god, and should be worshiped because of that. By taking control of Pharaoh’s desires and emotions, God was essentially stabbing Egypt in the heart, so to speak.
Sure, great explanation of why that would be the case. That being said, perhaps the Egyptians observe this, but would the Jews? Even if they did, they suffered slavery from Pharaoh. Pharaoh’s heart is now hardened, so he continues as he was, did that prove anything? The Egyptians still worship Pharaoh, and he still has his slaves as he always did, that didn’t change that they worshiped him for a pure heart. The Jews are still enslaved as they always were, so whether they observe the pure heart of pharaoh or not, nothing has changed for them. Now this may be for later generations to figure out or something, but I don’t think the pure heart of pharaoh is mentioned anywhere else in the Bible to point that out, unless you know of some verse somewhere.
So in conclusion, God absolutely has the ability to harden people’s hearts, he has the right to harden people’s hearts, and he does it for a good reason – to save his few chosen.
I agree that He may have the ability, but again, there’s a few things you have to accept if He really does this in every case that can feel problematic. Not to say you can’t leave with these problems, but they should still be regarded.
Thank you for the thoughtful response, and thank you for bearing with mine.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
just wondering what your thoughts are on this. (note if you don’t want to watch a 35 min video were a christian theologian tries to use the bible and history to disprove the Church of the Latter Day Saints that makes sense. So you don’t have to respond. The current discourse just made me want to know your thoughts on the video below)
I’ll take a look at it tomorrow. I’m not sure how far I’ll be able to get through, because no one really likes a long discussion of why someone is wrong, but we’ll see.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
First off addressing the translations. We have original documents of the written Bible (In its written language), and we use those to make our translations. We are not copying one English Bible and changing it to a Spanish Bible, we are deriving each one of them separately from the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. Every word in the Bible does make a huge difference, so we can’t say that it is wrong. We can have certain translations that are wrong, but if you look up exactly how it is translated from the original languages, it is generally very, very precise.
About predestination, I disagree. God gives us free will to ask Jesus to save us. God knows who he will save, but he doesn’t “choose” them. We are the ones who have to choose God. Just look at the countless times when Jesus, the disciples, and Paul told people that all they had to do to get to heaven was repent. Repent is turning away from your sins and toward God, not waiting for God to change you. In the verses quoted from Romans, God doesn’t harden just anyone, it’s whoever he wills. He would only harden someone’s heart if he knew they were never going to come to him, as he wants everyone to come to heaven. He saves whoever he wills, which is those who place their faith and trust in him. If we just had to wait on God to save us, there would be no way of true repentance. Repentance is of free will, you can choose to do it or not to do it. And if we have to repent to be saved (which we do), and repentance is of free choice, we can therefore not simply be “chosen” for salvation, at least not in this sense, because we have to choose to repent.
I agree with you on the LGBTQ+ stuff. It is clearly condemned in scripture, and we cannot back down to it. Though we should help our Christian family out of their transgender or homosexual sins, if they are not Christians we must first bring them to Christ before we show scripture’s condemnation their sins.
Also, gonna be out of town for a while so I won’t be active for a wee bit.
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
What’s the video you want me to watch? This is just a link to the radical site…
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
@folith-feolin @orangearmadillo
I completely agree on what you’ve said concerning gender ideology, and it was in the subtext of what I said about technology. My Church is very firm with the Proclamation to the Family, which is simply collecting and reaffirming what we already believed:
[ h ttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng ] (delete the space after the h)
But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is still careful to speak to directly about these things in recent years, because we know if we will, we will be shut down. We don’t believe that LGBTQ+ individuals are evil, but they are mislead and hurt in a crazy world of confusion. They do not need our judgement, but instead our love. Does this mean supporting their choices, no, but we must love the person, not the sin. Give them the love and healing they desperately need, instead of the pat on the back and telling them that this is what it means to be happy.
On what you said about translations, sure, but again, languages aren’t bijective, and even one translation from ancient Hebrew (again a dead language, that is hard to know for sure the meaning of each word) to some other language like English can create a lot of confusion, no matter how much time and care is taken, thus we have as many translations as we do. And once again, even a Spanish translation to another Spanish translation hand written can have human error, though in our modern era, we can now try to work with the original source material with a little more accuracy. Now, what you may say is that God will preserve His word, which yes, this is totally true, however, since there is so many different kinds of translations, again nearly a thousand in English alone, does God preserve each one perfectly to teach us? I don’t think He would let His word get so scattered like this unless it is by the purpose of forcing us to have to work a little harder to understand His words.
I totally agree on your point on who God saves. We are not the ones begging for the chance to enter heaven. If anyone is begging, it is Jesus Christ, pleading ‘Please, choose to stay, use my atonement, please, change through my Grace’. Heaven won’t be Heaven, if we don’t choose to be heavenly. Christ won’t make us perfect, because He knows that we won’t be happy, because that is not what happiness is. I’m kinda quoting a sermon from Brad Wilcox called His Grace is Sufficient, which clarifies what my Church’s believes regarding the nature of Grace and works, and the confusion between Church members and other faiths regarding our Church. I can link it if anyone’s interested, but its also not at all hard to find online, it may even be the first search result.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I think you are exactly right about needing to approach gender issues lovingly and gently. I feel that in my experiences sharing the gospel with those populations you first have to get to know them as a person before you can actually talk to them about the gospel (if that makes sense?).
Yep, Absolutely! The Savior taught us to love our enemies, not to say that queer individuals are our enemy, but many can be for that reason, and the principle remains the same.
Btw, I still only have a link to the Radical site, could you maybe tell me what the video is called?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
oh, weird, it just appeared, sorry😅
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Ok, so I’m going to write down my thoughts, I’m about in the first third at this point. So all he’s said basically is what we believe, and how that is deviated from Christian orthodoxy. Yes, we believe in a lot of different things (So far all those things I do have a comfortable understanding of everything he’s pointed out) but so far I still don’t see why that makes us a cult, and why that makes us not Christian. Either way though, while we do technically have many of these beliefs, we don’t stress about many of them, like divine potential. Many other Christian faiths overstress this, but for us, that is a long ways off in the future, and we don’t really regard it much, because we don’t need to, but it can be heavily supported by the Bible.
Ok, halfway point. Again, he’s simply saying what we believe, and how that’s different, and again, sure, we’re different, but I still don’t see why we are thus a cult or non Christian. We are non-trinitarian, sure, I don’t see why that takes the Christian title away from us. It is biblical that we speak of a Father, and a Son, so even if they are one being, can we not be humble like a child and simply accept what was said? Even if it is true that they are one entity, I still read the bible, and see them as 2 individuals, so why take that from me? The Bible says it for some reason, right? Why would God make the distinction, but if we actually believe that it’s a literal distinction, we do not believe in God’s word?
Ok, before I go too far on, he just said something really significant about Grace and works. I want it to be clear that we are Grace based, unlike he is now pointing out. This is a MAJOR confusion even among our Members, because of what he quotes in the Book of Mormon: Christ gives his grace “after all we can do”. This is actually an example of how quickly language changes. Historians actually believe that in Joseph Smith’s day, the word ‘after’ is actually closer to the word ‘despite’. This is evidenced through much Christian literature of the time outside of the Church, and is further evidenced by non religious text, like random studies on botany, where it seems to make more sense that after would actually mean despite. We can’t be certain 100% but it simply makes more sense, since the Book of Mormon makes it clear everywhere else that it is only by the Grace of Christ that man is saved. This being said, we do believe in works, however, we do not believe works is what leads to our salvation, it is by the works that we learn to live as Christ had, and accept His atonement. If you don’t mind, I’m actually going to go ahead and link His Grace is Sufficient, from Brad Wilcox that really makes it clear our beliefs regarding Grace and works:
h ttps://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox/his-grace-is-sufficient/ (delete the space after the h)
Now he’s pointing out ordinances, which yes, we believe that it is through the ordinances we have been given that man can be exalted. Christ already saved us from Physical death automatically, but again, we must accept His hand if we are to be exalted, which we do in the form of Covenants and Ordinances. Again, the sermon I linked. I can’t be mad at him though, because again, this is a big confusion even to those within the Church.
Ok, so he’s now just making wisecracks on ruining the salvation of everyone in the room by telling them about the Church. That’s a very surface level explanation, and isn’t really correct still. It isn’t about being in or not in what we believe to be the true Church, it’s about coming unto Christ, so even Christians that know about our Church and don’t subscribe to it we do believe can be exalted once the temple work is done for them, they only need to accept it. Even a non Christian can be taught in the next life, and accept or deny Christ. This life is how we choose to live eternally, but not everyone has that opportunity to learn of Christ in this life. Everyone will be given the opportunity. God doesn’t pick favorites, and it makes me sad that many other faiths believe that we think He does.
Ok, so he finally defines his version of a cult. “A group that claims to be in harmony with Christianity, but denies foundational Christian doctrines.” Ok, so what are we denying? The trinity? I honestly think that it is very unfair for this to be a defining feature of Christian vs non-Christian. Please tell me where in the Bible it says “Oh, by the way, when I mentioned a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, they are actually one being, and you don’t actually believe this doctrine if you took the mention of three as actually meaning three individuals.” that may have come off a little rude, but if he can make wisecracks, I think I can in return. We are not orthodox, but by what authority was it claimed that they are one being? The people that made the Nicene Creed after burning someone at the stake for suggesting that the Father and the Son are two individuals? Again, perhaps it is right that they are one being, but I don’t see why that is undeniable, and any belief otherwise is not a follower of Christ. Forgive me for coming off rude, I just find this frustrating, but I will say that I respect this man for doing everything in his power to do what he believes to be the Lord’s work. He seems like a great man, and I hope God will bless him on his endeavor.
Ok, so he just mentioned another condition of generally being governed by one individual. I don’t follow here, because obviously God gave authority to prophets to lead his people before Christ, and Christ is an individual who lead His people. The Pharisees looked at Christ, and said that He and His disciples are a cult, though they didn’t use that wording. Also, I would argue that it is Christ who governs our Church, not the Prophet, though it is through the Prophet that He governs the Church.
Now he does the mike drop, saying that “Without question” we are a counterfeit gospel. Again, I didn’t see any reason why. He was mostly right with a few errors of what we believe, and yes, that differs from the teachings of the majority of Christianity, but he didn’t explain why those differences are fundamental, and why they are even wrong. Yes, we are not orthodox, but does non-orthodox automatically mean false?
Ok, so he just went on a sudden rant on how the Church actually values things that the rest of Christianity should value. So… moving on I guess…
Now he’s pointing out a few things regarding God being spirit, and always being. I’ve covered these topics exhaustively in the past on KP, so it is an antiquated point. There are counter arguments that can be made, but what’s the point at this point.
He just said that we are not morally neutral, and I agree. I don’t follow what he’s saying here, except maybe what he was saying earlier about us choosing to be in harmony with or contentious with our divine nature. Obviously once in this life, we sin, at least once we are accountable, which we believe is by the age of 8, I understand that this is different from the rest of Christianity, but I don’t see how that means we’re saying we’re morally neutral.
He added another cult condition “anyone who minimizes the bad news, ultimately minimizes the good news at the same time”. Ok so, how are we minimizing the bad news? We know we have no way to be with God except through the Savior, this is a fundamental aspect of our doctrine. I guess we are minimizing the bad news by suggesting that everyone has an equal opportunity, even children that die before baptism will be accepted by God, because they are innocent. Ultimately though, how are we minimizing the vast eternal sacrifice of the Savior, the only way we as man can be saved?
He defined Christ: full man, full God, eternally equal with God. Jesus is the substitute that takes on the justice required from our sin. I agree 100%. I honestly think that despite taking the time he clearly has to understand our Church, he doesn’t really understand that we believe a lot of the same things, especially in regards to the Savior and what He did for us.
He took it back to the works thing. I get it, there is a lot of confusion here, but in the end, it is very clear that we believe in Grace, and not after all we can do, but despite all we can do, and defiantly not because all we do. I can’t be mad, this is hard to understand even among faithful members. We believe it is by only Grace we are saved, and through works we can learn to become Christlike. Ordinances help us learn and understand our God and Savior on a higher level, so that we can be exalted. And that is given to everyone, not just Members, but everyone will have that opportunity to accept or deny Christ’s Grace.
He went to the God thing again. Yes, that is something that exists in our theology, but again, it is really not something we talk about often, it is a far off future. We don’t believe ourselves to be equal to God, though sure, that could be a potential eventuality. We believe that we are man, and He is God, and we must be humble before Him. If you would pardon me doing this, but I’m going to quote the Book of Mormon in a couple of places:
In Alma 26:12 Ammon says:
Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.
And in Ether 12:27 (Christ speaking):
And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
And I could go on. But the point is the same. We recognize our nothingness, but we do also believe that we are Children of God in the most literal sense, and we can come back to Him, or deny Him.
Now again, he’s praising us for our missionary work. Do these things not suggest that we are good people, who genuinely love and would give our time and even lives for our Savior who died for us? Does that not suggest that there is truth here, if he is saying that you should be doing the same? If he recognizes that we are doing something right, that he should be doing also, does that not suggest that there might be a little more going on with this Church than false prophecy? My faith is honestly only getting reaffirmed here.
Now he points out that the Bible doesn’t say that there are second chances after death. Sure, does that mean God picks favorites then? What about all the children that die, and all the people that never get to even hear the name Jesus Christ? Our eternity is determined in this life, yes we agree, but for those who didn’t get the chance, the next life simply teaches them, and they will make the choice there, but that choice will be based off the life they lived prior. If a man honestly rejects God in this life, then he dies, that is his fate, rejection of God, we agree.
And he wraps it up with a prayer. It was really interesting to listen to. He seems like a cool guy, and I again hope God blesses him on his journey, but his denouncing of my Church felt really short sited, and misinterpreted to me. I agree on his ultimate point of remaining un-contentious, and projecting love continually, and I hope that I was able to project the same. Another sermon I would like to give back, (not arguing, just to further the point of non contention) is from the Prophet of the Church Russell M. Nelson called Peacemakers Needed:
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQghSMOOYz4 (Delete space after the h)
Now, if you don’t mind, I would like to link David Alexander as a rebuttal, and if your willing, maybe talk about some of your thoughts. A man who has spent the last 47 years trying to discover the true Church, intentionally avoiding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but eventually Joined it in the end. I’ll let him explain his story though, I’ll just link the channel, because he covers a verity of things:
h ttps://www.youtube.com/@davidmalvinalexander/featured (Delete space after the h)
Thanks for the video, it was cool to watch, and I had fun responding. If there is any points I missed you were thinking about, go ahead and let me know!
If there is an
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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