Apologetics

[whaley]

@thearcaneaxiom

I’d also like to ask, can you give me your own summary of what you believe, belonging to the Latter-Day Saints? I have a limited knowledge of what y’all believe, and I would like to hear it from your point of view.

“Everything is a mountain”

[whaley]

The whole lot of y’all are pastor kids, that’s awesome! Do your Dads study ancient Hebrew, modern, or both?

Whoops, forgot about this! My dad studies at least ancient Hebrew to my knowledge 🙂 Yeah, it’s awesome and… interesting XD I’ll cause trouble in my friend group and they’re like, “ain’t you the pastor kid???”

“Everything is a mountain”

[The Ducktator]

@whalekeeper @trailblazer @freed_and_redeemed

Pastor kids unite! XD And what’s a Youth Pastor? I’ve heard the term, but I don’t know what it means.

There are two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

[whaley]

@theducktator

Yeah, I hear that term a lot too… I think it means the leader of the youth group? Although I wouldn’t call our leader a pastor, by any means. He never had to study for it.

My dad is the only pastor, besides a couple retired guys who fill in now and then. What about your church?

“Everything is a mountain”

[TheArcaneAxiom]

@whalekeeper

Ey, I can say something in a round-about way, and it can still be completely logical. But that’s beside the point. I can’t see how any of those “contradictions,” as you put it, discard the infallibility of those passages’ meanings. If the different disciples wrote Jesus’ words with slightly different grammar, that is a matter of medium, and it doesn’t change the meaning of his words.

But the staff thing is a deliberate contradiction, not just , not just a slightly different quotation, as small as it is. But fair enough, you accept that there can be some errors, just not in meaning. But why I ask? If God is so perfect that He controls His prophet’s hands when writing scripture, why does He leave grammatical errors, is that not imperfection? Do you at least admit these grammatical errors and such came only from the hands of men, and we can be ok with that?

Also, what do you mean “meaning the 66 books of the Bible)? You blew right past me there.

I mean can you show me where the Bible explains that every word in the 66 books are God breathed as you put it.

Again, what blatant changes to the ten commandments do you mean? There are lots of different translations, sure, but the meaning of the commandments isn’t debated to my knowledge. Again, it’s a matter of medium. I can recite the first commandment in the ESV, the KJV, or Spanish, and it still means “no other gods but me.”

It’s different for Protestants vs Catholics/Lutherans vs Jews to start. What you might find familiar, like “you shall not have any gods before me” to Catholics is “I am the Lord your God, you shall not have strange Gods before me” and to Jews it’s “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of slavery in Egypt”. The second “commandment” (they call them items, because not all of them are commandments) to the Jews is then the “you shall have no other gods”. If you go through all of them, you’ll find most of the same ideas, but in a different orders, and a few different ideas. Like though shalt not covet your neighbors wife is a very different meaning from thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not kidnap is a more specific version of thou shalt not steal.

Bruh. You literally pullin radical skepticism on meh. O.O

Hey, it’s true🤷‍♂️

That is a belief system you may take and I will not debate against it, because that is too much for both of us rn. But regardless of whether or not we can definitely know God’s word is infallible, if it is infallible, he is, and if not, we have a whole bigger problem to deal with. And if you deny that then that’s being skeptical of logic itself, and that’s an even bigger fish that I am not catching tonight, nO siR, nOt me.

I still don’t see the logic I’m denying though. So far the only logic I’ve seen is the idea that since God is infallible, and prophets speak for Him, then what they speak is infallible. Could I not just as much say, God is perfect, God created us, therefore, we are perfect?

Acknowledged and noted.

👍

Common ground also noted.

I guess where I’m confused is where you actually stand. I was under the impression you believed God’s word is fallible. Can you give me a clear statement of what you believe?

Well like I said “I simply have faith that if there is error, I need not worry, because I have faith that God has it all figured out” I openly accept that their could be error, but it is not God’s, it is mans. I can trust that God has all the details figured out, and that could be by simply perfecting scripture, but it can also be by other means. I can trust that if I have a mistaken understanding of some point of theology, I will not be condemned for it, because I worked with what I have received, knowing that God knows all, where I don’t. Like it says in the title page of the Book of Mormon, “If there be faults in this book, they are the faults of man, therefore, condemn not the things of God.” This statement acknowledges that there can be faults, but that doesn’t mean we should condemn anything the book teaches, because it is still directed by God, even if those directed are not God, they are doing their best to do His will, and all things are possible with Him.

I’d also like to ask, can you give me your own summary of what you believe, belonging to the Latter-Day Saints? I have a limited knowledge of what y’all believe, and I would like to hear it from your point of view.

Sure! So we believe that authority was lost on the earth sometime after all the apostles died. This is called the great falling away. Everyone worked with what they had, but God was silent for this time. Then came Joseph Smith, who prayed about what Church is right, and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both came, they told him that he should join none of the Churches.

Later the angel Maroni came to Joseph, and skipping a whole lot of important stuff, he started translating the golden plates, which were a record of people in the Americas, who Christ came to after His resurrections. This is the stick of Joseph spoken of in Ezekiel. This is how the Book of Mormon came to be, and later the Church of Jesus Christ was set up, being a restoration of apostolic authority.

Our beliefs can be summarized with the articles of faith:

1
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

If you have any other questions, I’m always open.

Whoops, forgot about this! My dad studies at least ancient Hebrew to my knowledge 🙂 Yeah, it’s awesome and… interesting XD I’ll cause trouble in my friend group and they’re like, “ain’t you the pastor kid???”

Lol, do they bug you with theological questions much? Yeah, studying the ancient Hebrew is fascinating:) Has your Dad talked about the Tetragrammaton much?

 

 

He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.

[The Ducktator]

@whalekeeper

I don’t really know what a youth group is either XD. Our church only has about 52 people. My dad’s the only priest, but we also have a deacon. Our deacon reads a historic sermon about once a month to give my dad a break from preaching. My dad records his sermons so my siblings and I always ask how long the sermon was at the peace. His record longest is 51 minutes. His record shortest, not counting homily days, is 23 minutes. We also have a crucifer and an acolyte, but those jobs rotate between the kids each week.

There are two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

[The Ducktator]

@thearcaneaxiom

The Church of Latter Day Saints is the official name for Mormons, right?

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So, does the third mean you do not agree with infant baptism?

There are two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

[TheArcaneAxiom]

@theducktator

The Church of Latter Day Saints is the official name for Mormons, right?

That is correct. We don’t really like the nickname though, because it takes away the focus from Christ. Mormon we respect as a great prophet who compiled the plates, but this is the Lord’s church, not his.

So, does the third mean you do not agree with infant baptism?

That’s correct. You’ll also see how we believe that man will be punished for their own transgressions, not for Adam’s, so we believe that accountability comes from us, and for us to be accountable, we need to know good from evil, an infant does not no good from evil, thus should not yet be baptized. Don’t worry for their salvation though, infants who die, die in a state of innocents, and thus will not be condemned.

He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.

[Trailblazer]

@theducktator @whalekeeper

Yes, the youth pastor is the pastor overseeing the youth. My church is larger, so we do have a youth group (the middle-school age students meet Monday nights; the high school students meet Wednesday nights). The purpose is to give the youth a space to not only have community of their own age, but also to give teaching more on their age level. When I was in the youth group, we had worship and a teaching every night, plus time for discussion in small groups.

Just out of curiosity, which churches are you guys a part of?

We also have a crucifer and an acolyte, but those jobs rotate between the kids each week.

@theductator Also, I’m not familiar with those roles. What all do they entail?

@thearcaneaxiom

I would agree with you on the point of baptism. All of the examples of baptism I can think of in the Bible are adults who have chosen to believe in the Messiah.

"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley

[freedom]

@thearcaneaxiom

After some prayer and some reflection, I kindly request that we leave this debate where it stands.

I’ve been thinking on it too much, and truthfully gives me an ounce of stress I don’t need right now.

 

It’s also obvious that neither of us are going to change our stance, and KP isn’t the place to debate theology (in my opinion) and I would rather use the bit of time I choose to do things here used for other means.

But I would like to not debate this any further. I intend to do my best to ‘live peaceably with all men’, and that means leaving this debate where it stands.

 

Thank you for understanding <3

✨ who the Son sets free is free indeed ✨

[freedom]

@trailblazer @whalekeeper @theducktator

Trailblazer is 100% right about what she said about Youth (although my church’s youth group is comprised of, like, maybe 6 kids on a regular basis??? And three of those are me and my siblings😅)

I am curious like Trailblazer, tbh! What kind of churches do y’all belong to? (and Trailblazer, too, what about you?)

(I myself am a Non-Denominational Christian, so😂)

✨ who the Son sets free is free indeed ✨

[Trailblazer]

@freed_and_redeemed

I’m also non-denominational. My church used to be considered a Mennonite church but back in the 80s or 90s the leadership decided to split off because of disagreements of theology. My dad said one time a visitor described our church as “Menno-matic”, lol, a mixture of Mennonite and charismatic.

"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley

[whaley]

@thearcaneaxiom @theducktator @freed_and_redeemed @trailblazer

I am interested in this and I was ready to talk. Alas, I caught a nasty bug ten minutes after my last comment – no joke, I felt it wash over me super quickly – and I have a tendency to stay up all night whenever I’ve caught something.

Sooo I’ve been up for more than twenty-four hours and have no coherent thoughts.

I’m signing out for a while to recover, but Arcane, I’m still interested in understanding your beliefs and I’m not looking to argue against them.

And to everyone, I am Orthodox Presbyterian 😊 We are Calvinist, subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms, and we sing a mean acapella.

“Everything is a mountain”

[TheArcaneAxiom]

@trailblazer

I would agree with you on the point of baptism. All of the examples of baptism I can think of in the Bible are adults who have chosen to believe in the Messiah.

♥

@freed_and_redeemed

After some prayer and some reflection, I kindly request that we leave this debate where it stands.

I’ve been thinking on it too much, and truthfully gives me an ounce of stress I don’t need right now.

No worries Freedom, I hope you’ve at least enjoyed it a little. Please don’t take this as me trying to force any conclusions on you. No need to stress about these things if their causing you trouble, simply remember that while we know nothing, God has it all figured out.

It’s also obvious that neither of us are going to change our stance, and KP isn’t the place to debate theology (in my opinion) and I would rather use the bit of time I choose to do things here used for other means.

But I would like to not debate this any further. I intend to do my best to ‘live peaceably with all men’, and that means leaving this debate where it stands.

Fair. That’s something I should probably make more clear when I challenge specific views is my purposes of doing such. I have no intention of changing my viewpoint, but I do have the intention of challenging and refining it, thus I seek out these debates/discussions. If I find my view has some major internal inconsistency, then I will change it. I’m not seeking to prove others wrong, or showing why I’m right, though it might come off that way sometimes, and I’m sorry if it does.

I also seek to expand people’s scopes for other ideas that can exist, and grow in mutual understanding. We can have these discussions and walk away just as or even more passionate for our view, yet also walk away feeling kinship with one another. That’s at least how I feel about it, and I forget that others may not always feel the same. I bear no ill will towards you Freedom, quite the opposite. I’ve enjoyed our discussion, and I know that you are honest and God fearing.

Peace be with you, God bless.

@whalekeeper

I am interested in this and I was ready to talk. Alas, I caught a nasty bug ten minutes after my last comment – no joke, I felt it wash over me super quickly – and I have a tendency to stay up all night whenever I’ve caught something.

Sooo I’ve been up for more than twenty-four hours and have no coherent thoughts.

I’m signing out for a while to recover, but Arcane, I’m still interested in understanding your beliefs and I’m not looking to argue against them.

Oof, that’s never fun. Alright, get good rest when your body allows it, I look forward to continuing whenever you’re ready!

And to everyone, I am Orthodox Presbyterian 😊 We are Calvinist, subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms, and we sing a mean acapella.

Cool! I know a few Presbyterians. Let’s so, so the groups I’ve met on KP so far are non-denoms, Presbys, Pentos, and a few LDS. I’m yet to see any Baptists, Orthos, Cathos, Methos, or Luthos. I’m sure theirs plenty Baptists, but I’m not sure about the others.

We have a few acapella groups at BYU, but there’s nothing quite like our Tabernacle choir😄

He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.

[The Ducktator]

@whalekeeper

☹️ Hope you feel better! I tend to stay up way too late when I’m sick too, but I’ve never stayed up all night before. I am both horrified and impressed.

we sing a mean acapella.

Lol. We were acapella for years, but now we have a flutist.

@trailblazer @freed_and_redeemed

Youth group sounds fun. Our church only has three teens, two of which are my brother and I. I am an Anglican. We believe the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds. We also believe in the baptism of infants. @trailblazer A crucifer is the person who carries the cross during the processional and the recessional, and the acolyte, also called the torchbearer, lights and extinguishes the candles.

What Anglicanism looks like from our church website: (since a lot of people don’t know what Anglicanism is.)

We are first and foremost, evangelical. We hold to the tenants of the Protestant Reformation, such as justification by faith, the scripture as the ultimate authority and the other “solas.” We say “ultimate” rather than “sole” as we acknowledge many sources of authority in the church (clergy, councils, creeds, tradition, etc.) but the Holy Scriptures trump them all.
Secondly, we are sacramental. We believe that sacraments are more than just symbols; they are an essential part of the Christian life. All baptized believers are welcome to partake of the Lord’s Table, which we celebrate every Sunday.
Thirdly, we are catholic with a small “c”, which simply means “universal.” We hold to many traditions and worship practices that go all the way back to the early church such as liturgy. This means we have a very set order for worship. It also means we follow a calendar with set feasts and seasons, such as Lent, Eastertide, Advent, Christmas, and of course Ascension!
Lastly, we are charismatic, which means we believe the sign gifts were not limited to the first century, but are still in effect today.

@thearcaneaxiom

I’m sure theirs plenty Baptists, but I’m not sure about the others.

My dad says Non-Denominationals are essentially Baptists by another name. XD

That is correct. We don’t really like the nickname though, because it takes away the focus from Christ. Mormon we respect as a great prophet who compiled the plates, but this is the Lord’s church, not his.

I will use the official name then. Who was Mormon? I didn’t even know he was a person.

To clarify. We don’t baptize infants because we think they will go to hell if we don’t. We baptize them to officially enter them into God’s family, and so that they may be able to call him Father. When they get older, they may be confirmed, which is when a baptized person, usually a teen or adult, publicly affirms the Christian faith. Hopefully that makes sense. 🙂

There are two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

[Author]

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