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Yes, I essentially believe that morality is a reflection of God’s character. A common question is whether God commands things because they are good (which would make morality something beyond God) or certain things are good because God commands them (which would make God’s commandments arbitrary.) I think that the two are intertwined, which is the only way that you avoid that dilemma.
As for whether a universe where God was different could exist… As much as anything could exist. God is the foundation of the universe, so if you had a different foundation, everything would be different. I don’t feel it’s worth theorizing about, because we have no frame of reference for what it would be like.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksYes, I essentially believe that morality is a reflection of God’s character. A common question is whether God commands things because they are good (which would make morality something beyond God) or certain things are good because God commands them (which would make God’s commandments arbitrary.) I think that the two are intertwined, which is the only way that you avoid that dilemma.
I agree. I think there is a sense of objectivity in morality, like mathematics. I’ve discussed on here more than once whether or not God created mathematics, which I don’t believe He did, but I don’t believe that puts mathematics above Him in any way. God is the highest state of being, He is perfect, but none of those things would be meaningful without a preexisting concept of logic, and I would argue the same for morality.
As for whether a universe where God was different could exist… As much as anything could exist. God is the foundation of the universe, so if you had a different foundation, everything would be different. I don’t feel it’s worth theorizing about, because we have no frame of reference for what it would be like.
Fair enough.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Wyoh really doesn’t like you… I can’t see your post.
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
Wyoh looks like an egg mcmuffin. (It worked last time.)
So the essence of what I was trying to say is this:
We know God created the word Good, but maybe not its meaning, because He used it before anybody else existed.
Since the bible says that the requirements of the law are written in our hearts, does that mean that what we perceive as right and wrong is what God does or does not command? Or does it mean that what God commands is right and that His commands are written in our hearts in the form of our consciences so that we can tell what is right and what is wrong?
"Courage, dear heart." -Aslan
Wyoh looks like an egg mcmuffin. (It worked last time.)
Lol I’m still stuck on this haha!
I would give a response to your question but I’m too tired right now to piece my thoughts together.
"Real love is for your good, not for your comfort." -Justin Whitmel Earley
I think your post was eaten. It says you posted, but I don’t see it.
There are two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Oof, I’ll repost
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
We know God created the word Good, but maybe not its meaning, because He used it before anybody else existed.
So I’m not sure what exactly your getting at here. Are you asking if Good as a concept existed prior to God’s first use of it in Genesis? If so, I’d say yes.
Since the bible says that the requirements of the law are written in our hearts, does that mean that what we perceive as right and wrong is what God does or does not command? Or does it mean that what God commands is right and that His commands are written in our hearts in the form of our consciences so that we can tell what is right and what is wrong?
So I’d read this as our conscience. Are you more specifically asking whether or not good and evil are independent fundamental laws independent from God, vs Good and evil being completely relative to God? Or are you asking something else?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
So I’m not sure what exactly your getting at here. Are you asking if Good as a concept existed prior to God’s first use of it in Genesis? If so, I’d say yes.
What I was trying to get at is that God was the first one to use the word “good.” That means that He invented the word. However, it’s debatable whether God invented the concept of good. It would certainly make sense if He were the origin and the source of all goodness, but I would have to really do research in order to fully back that.
Are you more specifically asking whether or not good and evil are independent fundamental laws independent from God, vs Good and evil being completely relative to God? Or are you asking something else?
Yes, that’s fundamentally what I’m getting at. I realise that I wasn’t exactly clear — my post had been eaten by Wyoh a couple times and I was rushing to write it down again before I had to go. A better way to phrase it would be this: If our sense of right and wrong comes from God, would that mean that God’s commandments are what we call good? Or does that mean that what He wants is always good, which is why God made the law, and why it is written in our hearts?
I hope that makes sense. I must admit that I am confusing myself.
I remember somebody saying that God created time, but I don’t know of any back for that statement. Food for thought.
"Courage, dear heart." -Aslan
What I was trying to get at is that God was the first one to use the word “good.” That means that He invented the word. However, it’s debatable whether God invented the concept of good. It would certainly make sense if He were the origin and the source of all goodness, but I would have to really do research in order to fully back that.
So this is a deep theological/philosophical question that comes down to how one interprets the ontology of God being all powerful and preexistent. If your in the line of Catholic or Protestant faiths, then you’d likely describe God as having the characteristic of being all good, suggesting to some that there is frame of reference for Good outside of God. Some Protestant faiths stress God’s omnipotence though, discarding the idea that He is bound to anything like being all good, since He does as He pleases, this is primarily but not exclusively a Calvinistic view. Calvinism will go so far as to say that God creates ontologically all existing matter/spirit/concept ex-nihilo, which means that yes, He made up the concept of Good. Other faiths such as Eastern Orthodox don’t describe God as having the characteristic of being all Good, but is instead something beyond comprehension, and “all good” is a ray of experience that exudes from that beyondness, thus suggesting that God does create good as a concept.
To give my personal take, being LDS, I’d say that God is bound by natural law, albeit higher law that is beyond our current comprehension, so I’d say that good is an external standard. At the same time, I believe all good things come from God, and if there was no God, there’d be no good. What I’m getting at here is that I believe that truth exists, but unless it is used, then it might as well not exist. If 1+1=2, but no one is around to comprehend that, it might as well be entirely meaningless. I see good in the same way, where it is meaningless without God.
I hope that lays out some of the differing views for you. As to which is correct, you’ll have to study and pray and seek council to figure out which path you’d take if any.
Yes, that’s fundamentally what I’m getting at. I realise that I wasn’t exactly clear — my post had been eaten by Wyoh a couple times and I was rushing to write it down again before I had to go. A better way to phrase it would be this: If our sense of right and wrong comes from God, would that mean that God’s commandments are what we call good? Or does that mean that what He wants is always good, which is why God made the law, and why it is written in our hearts?
I hope that makes sense. I must admit that I am confusing myself.
Yeah, there’s a few different views on this as I’ve listed above. I’d say it’s a little bit of both. Consider God commanding Samson to not shave his hair. Is it morally bad to shave one’s head? No, but Samson covenanted with the Lord that he wouldn’t, so it’s bad for him. Though I think this is separate from God writing His law in our hearts, because I’d say that more has to do with our conscience. So there’s covenantal law, then I’d say there’s fundamental law, that is where true morality lies, which is the part of yourself that screams things like pouring boiling water on a child is wrong.
Another thing we need to consider though is God’s actions. If there is a consistent external standard, does God adhere to it? God takes lives, God let’s suffering exist in the world, God allows boiling water to fall on children every day. This has lead some to believe that good is purely relative to God. My personal issue is that if this is the case, then what is good to begin with, because it becomes subjective to one entity at this point, so there’s no sense in the word. I’d say that God does adhere to law, we just don’t fully know what that law is. In the case of taking lives, that’s not evil in God’s hands because for one He’s the one that gave life, and two, He knows the eternities, death can be a mercy in many cases, and overall, He is the judge. As for the problem of evil, God allows those things for a greater good (imo).
I remember somebody saying that God created time, but I don’t know of any back for that statement. Food for thought.
This is a common creedal Christian view. You can reference a few things, like Genesis 1:14-19 where God creates the day and the night, but at the same time, this is the 4th day. The argument I always hear is it makes more sense philosophically for time to have a beginning, because it’d take an infinite amount of time to get to now otherwise. When it comes to the nature of infinity and time though, this doesn’t really hold much weight, and I personally don’t buy into it. I think God can work outside of time, indeed, He is Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, but as for whether he’s made time ontologically speaking, I don’t know, but I also advocate for free will, which is a monkey wrench in the system.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I hope that wasn’t too much😅
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
That was deep. I’m definitely going to be praying about that and seeing what the bible says.
"Courage, dear heart." -Aslan
Fair enough, lol!
Would you say that you adhere to the doctrine of infallible scripture and/or sola scriptura then?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Oooh that’s a hard one.
The problem is that we have no way of proving whether something outside of scripture is true or not unless overwhelmed with evidence.
"Courage, dear heart." -Aslan
Hmmm, I’m not sure about that. Could you elaborate on what you mean? Are you speaking in a moral and/or historical context? Because there’s a lot of things outside of scripture we can know, even in a moral context.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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