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Isn’t it amazing that God actually cared that much about something that small? You didn’t laugh at the picture because you’re a fallen creature, fighting against the sin in your bones. Even though we’ve been trying all this time to wrap our minds around the deep moral dilemmas behind this complex, stirring issue . . . all that stopped for something like 3 seconds, and someone experienced joy. And it happened because you were designed by a creator, and that made the checklist.
That is truly a beautiful thought, Daniel. We don’t think about those little things as much as we should.Rats.
It really sucks to not notice when stuff happens, and then everything is out of date when you arrive.
Not cool.
Haha! I know what you mean. I noticed that this great discussion was going on, and I wasn’t a part of it, and it made me want to go and kill someone off in my novel.
Okay… maybe not.
Hey guys! This discussion has been so interesting to read through and I’m so bummed I haven’t been able to be a part of it yet (my family’s been crazy busy) and I know that Daniel just started a new discussion and ya’ll will head over there soon, but I’ve had lots of thoughts from your great discussion on this topic and might get to post them later this week. (that is as long as ya’ll aren’t to overly tired of this topic yet… 🙂
https://rolenahatfield.com/
Post away, Rolena! A fresh perspective is always good, especially since most of us were so immersed in this subject that I know at least I was beginning to get muddled.
Most of us can probably stand a few more thoughts on this without going green in the face… 😉
Forgive me for entering this discussion so late, but ya’ll got my thinker chugging and I’ve been thinking on the topic in question (vampires and zombies) for these past couple weeks now. I’ll get right to point cause I know a lot of you have been reading lots of long posts on this topic already. 🙂 Mainly I’ve been pondering this about the topic, why don’t I (Rolena) write using vampires and zombies and why haven’t I ever considered it? I’d never asked myself this because I’ve always simply not read or wrote about them and that was that. But since they’ve been in discussion around here recently, I’ve been challenged to settle the question in my own mind. So here are a few considerations I’ve discovered concerning this thing!
First of all, I’ve noticed it’s been mentioned quite a few times that zombies and vampires are not directly found in the Bible. Part of this has got to be because these two words were not invented until after the Bible had been written. (To state the obvious here) So then I wanted to know where we did get these words from. So I got out my handy dandy Dictionary of Word Origins book and this is what I found.
vampire – Vampire probably goes back ultimately to ubyr, a word for ‘witch’ in the Kazan Tatar language of an area to the east of Moscow. This was borrowed into Russian as upyr, and from there probably found its way into Hungarian as vampire. English acquired it via French vampire or German vampir. The application of the word to a type of blood-sucking bat was introduced by the 18th century French biologist Buffon.
zombie – Zombie was originally the name of a snake-god in the voodoo cult of West Africa, and later of the Caribbean, and it comes from a West African language (it is related to Kongo nzambi ‘god’ and zumbi) It was later applied to a reanimated corpse in the voodoo cult.
Probably more than you or I ever wanted to know. But it showed me where these two (may I call them beings?) derived from. And I’ve noticed, now in the 21st century, our world (particularly libraries and movie shelves) are filled with many made up evil “beings” that have derived from the origins of real evil beings. So whether the evil being is real or “pretend” (formed by the imagination of men from real beings), I was really anxious to find out how God views evil beings and how that relates to me and my writings.
So I went searching further (even through a great face to face conversation with a wise man I know ) and to the Bible to see what there was to be found.
The main example I’ve been dwelling on is in Genesis 6 where beings with evil intent mixed with the human race corrupting the human line. In order to purify the line that would lead to His chosen people, God sent a worldwide flood, wiping out every living human except Noah and his family because Noah was righteous and was “perfect” (or pure)” in his generation”. Then in Jude we find out that the angels (beings) mixed in this circumstance “he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” Pretty harsh consequences in that circumstance when beings of evil mixed with humans.
I also wondered if the account of Saul calling Samuel from the dead or Simon who was a sorcerer would shed some light on the situation, but I haven’t given them to study yet.
I’m finding that one of the reasons I can’t help but feel disturbed about seeing so many vampires and zombies in books and other materials is because they’re origins are derived from the beings whom we “wrestle” against. (“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”)
I was also thinking about how murder, anger, stealing, lying, hating, these are all sins “evil” if you will, within the human realm. Beings that are evil are outside of our dimensions. We can’t help but know about human’s fleshly evil, because we ourselves were born flesh. But what if we hadn’t learned about the evil outside of our own? It’s too late now because Satan was and is determined to defile God’s people, tempting them with evil, which is why we wrestle against spiritual wickedness, not to mention that he (Satan) is the father of lies and murder. When he came to Eve in the garden was the first time he exposed God’s people to an evil outside of our own.
So I know that God is never pleased with humans interacting with evil beings. Christ cast out demons, for one reason because humans are not meant to be indwelt by them. Perhaps God did not intend for us to be “exposed” to evil beings, but (all things are in His authority, knowledge and power) it has happened.
So I’m wondering if this should be an evil we should be simple about. (“…but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good and simple concerning evil.” Romans 16:19) Why would we want to add to the knowledge of evil we already have in our flesh?
These are the considerations I’ve had flying about in my head these past couple weeks and my are they ever so hard to put down in words! I suppose in conclusion I have to say that I honestly don’t see anything worthwhile in writing about such things as vampires and zombies with all the warnings and consequences I see concerning them and that overall it’s concerning that the two beings appear to be a popular obsession in our world. And that’s all the time I have to write for now… 🙂https://rolenahatfield.com/
Good thoughts, Rolena. Thanks for sharing.
So yes. Your post definitely established that vampires and zombies are evil, but that isn’t what we were debating. I misunderstood that at first myself—that we were not debating whether they were evil or not, but whether or not we—understanding fully their wickedness and ties to darkness and Satan—should still have them in our books. And after several weeks of this argument buzzing around in my head, I think I have my act straight in my own mind now. 😛
First of all, it seemed to me that you were arguing that because vampires and zombies are connected more closely to Satan than, say, murder or lying, we should not have them in our books. Well… yes and no.
No because there is no evil in this world apart from Satan. We have nothing but Satan and our own weakness to blame for it.
Yes because, as I mentioned, those kinds of evil are very, very closely associated with Satan, more so than other forms of wickedness, so we have to be very, very careful about using them. But James 2:10 says this:‘For whoever shall keep the law and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said “Do not commit adultery” also said “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.’
God esteems all wickedness and evil alike. There is no difference in His eyes between a ‘little’ wickedness and a great one.
(By the way, I looked up the verse you mentioned in Genesis and it says ‘Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of MAN was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.’ Is this not the verse you meant? I didn’t find anything about ‘evil beings’).Now the question is, is it ever okay to take something so ‘specially’ evil and put it in your book? The answer, I believe, is yes. I’ll never write a Vampire or Zombie myself just because they are so cheap and horrific in their stereotypical form, but I would write a witch, or a sorcerer, or a necromancer. Why? Because darkness offsets the light. The theme of a book is never as powerful if the reader has not seen why it was necessary, why it turned out like it did. There has to be evil for there to be redemption. And the reader has to see that evil to understand why redemption is such a special thing.
Have you read ‘A Christmas Carol’ by Charles Dickens? This is a good example of ‘spirits’ (Perhaps evil, perhaps neutral, perhaps good, though I don’t exactly think so for the last one) used to drive home the theme of a story. It would not have been so significant that Scrooge completely reformed himself if there had not been the spirits there to show us, as the readers, how horrifically bleak the future looked. Now, the spirits were partly symbolic of the different ‘moods’ of all the different Christmases, but take the last spirit, if you will. The Ghost of Christmas yet to come. He was absolutely terrifying— I have rarely ever met anything so dark and morbid and evil feeling. But he was used to show Scrooge that there was a chance of something besides the darkness— he and the other spirits. And the theme would not have been slammed home with nearly as much force if, say, Scrooge had only realized on his own how bleak the future was for him.Anyway, all that to say that sometimes we need great evil to make the theme shine forth in clarity and beauty undimmed. See, say we have a story with a theme of redemption. If you read it, if I read it, and there is no great evil in it, we will still ‘get’ the theme, because both you and I have Christian worldviews. But the audience I am reaching out to with my stories doesn’t have that. They have no concept of sin. How can we give them only the message of grace? They won’t understand it, because in their mind, there will be no meaning. There is no need of grace if there has not been darkness and evil and wickedness.
It’s like starting in the middle of the Bible with the gospel message, leaving out Genesis and everything that made Christ’s sacrifice necessary. Because the world has no concept of evil or wickedness, they will not understand why they need grace.Okay, now I believe I have come to the end of this extremely long post. I am almost certain I will post it only to find that someone else older and wiser posted while I was writing this one out, but oh well. Here goes.
Thanks Kate for pointing out that the discussion is about whether or not they should be used in books not weather of not they’re evil(as we all seem to agree on that point!) I had picked up on that as I read through previous posts, but forgot about it as I was writing out the whirlwind of thoughts that’s been swirling in my mind and so it may have seemed more like a argument in the direction of whether or not they’re evil, even though it was supposed to be my reason for not writing about them!
So it seems that there are a few things I could simplify, please allow me to clarify some statements!
First of all, you’re right in saying that God sees evil as evil and I had no intentions of stating otherwise. What I was trying to say (sometimes words just don’t come across the way you had intended!) is that as you mentioned Kate, evil is of Satan and also of man. So is it right to say that evil comes from two different sources?
If so and these evil beings originated from Satan’s evilness, I’d rather not imagine things up about them to write in a book of my own. Using Satan’s evilness as the evil vs. truth in books is possibly a very dangerous path.
I guess what I might need to say is to question whether using vampires and zombies is wise?
People can warn me about not giving into the temptation of say dishonoring my parents, but because of my flesh, I (very easily) fall into the sin of dishonoring my parents. I was born in my sin. But was I born with the knowledge of all of Satan’s schemes and evil? Not that I remember (please correct me if I’m wrong)
Anyway, I’m just wondering if this is one evil we writers should and could stay away from.
Personally I intend to.And I have to skiddaddle for now, so I’ll come back about the confusing Noah example I used Kate!
https://rolenahatfield.com/
God esteems all wickedness and evil alike. There is no difference in His eyes between a ‘little’ wickedness and a great one.
Nitpicky tired person say no. There is an unforgivable sin, and it is said that though all sins are equally worthy of hell, it is better to, say, hate your brother in your heart, than to actually go and kill him. Jus’ sayin’.
So is it right to say that evil comes from two different sources?
You’re thinking about evil wrong. You gotta start with God. What is God? Infinitely good. What is evil? Anything that is not good.
Satan led man into sin, and Satan assuredly has other was of rebelling against God than we do, but his evil is exactly the same as man’s. Exactly. And it stems from the same source: Rebelling against the goodness of God.
You can no more draw a distinction between the evil of Satan, and the evil of man, than you could draw a distinction between the goodness of the Father, and the goodness of the Son.
Using Satan’s evilness as the evil vs. truth in books is possibly a very dangerous path.
Why?
For some reason, people think that having well written evil = extolling evil. Or that you can’t portray evil for what it is without being preachy.
This argument is actually along the same lines as saying, “I can’t put goodness in my novel, because if it’s too like the goodness of God then it’ll be blasphemy.”
It’s simply not true. If anything, the evil associated with Satan is something we need to see more of in literature, shown for what demonic stuff really is.
Honestly, when treated with the proper attitude, I think portraying the truth of Satan’s lies is something that is /extremely/ beneficial to many people, including the author. Yes, it might not be so for other people. Other people might be hurt by it. But actually, it’s not my job to look out for them. (Am I my brother’s keeper? 😛 No, just kidding, read on.) My job is not to put anything in a book that is inherently sinful, and not building up in any way to my brothers.
It’s the readers duty to know what he/she can handle, not mine.
But was I born with the knowledge of all of Satan’s schemes and evil? Not that I remember (please correct me if I’m wrong)
Yes and no. You were born with the sin nature that’s in all of us. So all of Satan’s evil, yes. And technically speaking, all his schemes as well. Really, he just has the one: Defeat God.
And that’s what our sin nature is too. Obviously we’re not born knowing the thoughts of Satan, but we can make pretty educated guesses.
Ezra, I thought that a very intelligent (intelecjewel 😛 ) post for a tired, nitpicky person. You don’t seem to suffer from the malady that besets me— when I get tired and nitpicky, I can’t articulate my thoughts to save my life. Thankfully, it hasn’t come to that yet. Let’s hope it never will.
Yes. I agree with your post. I had… one point I would dispute, and that’s the part you addressed specifically to me. You said: ‘…and it is said that though all sins are equally worthy of hell, it is better to, say, hate your brother in your heart, than to actually go and kill him. Jus’ sayin’.’ Okay— I see what you mean. But to think the sin is to commit it in your heart.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
That’s all. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I will add, Rolena, that I don’t think we ought to assign more power to Satan than he actually has in fearing him, in fearing to speak of him, in fearing to write of him, in fearing to show him as he is in a book, because ultimately, God is God, and light will triumph over darkness. And there’s nothing Satan can do about it. That is an encouraging thought.
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
Well that’s what I’m saying. Both acts are sinful, and earn you condemnation. But it’s better to just do the hating thing, instead of murdering the guy.
Ezra, I thought that a very intelligent (intelecjewel ? ) post for a tired, nitpicky person. You don’t seem to suffer from the malady that besets me— when I get tired and nitpicky, I can’t articulate my thoughts to save my life. Thankfully, it hasn’t come to that yet. Let’s hope it never will.
Well that’s a beautiful thing there.
Nah, I just get more loopy. I can articulate my thoughts about the same…they’re just…stranger thoughts.Oh— okay. That makes sense. So you’re just condemning your own soul, and not going off and doing something that will affect someone else. Okay. Gotcha. (No, that was not sarcasm).
Oh… dear. Well… I think I gotcha there too. I can totally relate. Sometimes my thoughts get p-r-etty strange when I’m… shall we say… not in the best of moods. 😛
@ Ezra – Your post holds some very good points which helped me sort out my own thoughts, so thank you for that.
Also thanks for correcting that sentence So is it right to say that evil comes from two different sources?
Using the word sources in that sentence wasn’t the word to use cause I can see how it gives wrong meaning. (My typing fingers tend to run faster than my brain!) I do believe that evil is evil in God’s eyes. There’s nothing in the middle of evil and good. Humans and Satan are both evil, we’re just different beings.Why?
Similar conclusions that others came to in this discussion. It is my conviction that I don’t wish to write about vampires and zombies. That’s the conviction God has brought me too and even though I know He has given good reasons for me not to write about them, (not all entirely written out in previous posts) I understand that I’m not here to convince others about my convictions. God does convict each person in different ways. He’s in control of that! I’ve appreciated the fact that people here at KP are willing to share their convictions.
@ Kate – Genesis chapter 6 starts off with telling us that “men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” in vs. 4 it goes on to say “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” These sons of God are said to be angels in Jude. Then in Genesis, God goes on saying that He “saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” It repented the Lord that He had made man on earth. So He says “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth…” Then is vs. 8 “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” God gave Noah grace, saving him because he was a just man, spared by God from the corruption that had corrupted man’s way and he was perfect in his generations, his ancestors were humans, not angels.
So yes God sent the flood to destroy those men, a judgement on their wickedness, but also I believe the destruction of all flesh except Noah and his family (and the animals) was to purify the human line from angel descendants at that time.
The angels were the beings I was referring to.https://rolenahatfield.com/
Okay… I think I get what you’re saying.
Similar conclusions that others came to in this discussion. It is my conviction that I don’t wish to write about vampires and zombies. That’s the conviction God has brought me too and even though I know He has given good reasons for me not to write about them, (not all entirely written out in previous posts) I understand that I’m not here to convince others about my convictions. God does convict each person in different ways. He’s in control of that! I’ve appreciated the fact that people here at KP are willing to share their convictions.
I was one of those others that came to similar conclusions— but I chose to not write Zombies and Vampires because they are a particularly graphic and unnecessarily disgusting stereotype of evil, not because it is wicked to write of deep wickedness. Maybe this is your conviction? Because I think among all of us here, we have established that there is no such thing as lesser or greater evil. There is no difference between writing about murder and writing about what inspires the murder— only that one touches much closer to the root of evil than only to the evil itself.
Do you have more thoughts to share on this? Maybe I’m missing a key part of your argument.
By the way, who feels like celebrating? Let’s celebrate for a minute. Why? I have no idea. It just— let’s just celebrate.
You want a reason? Okay— because this is officially the longest topic on the forum.
What does that mean? And why is it cause to celebrate? Because either Christian writers enjoy debating about icky creatures for the pure fun of it, or Christian writers are deeply concerned with moral issues and know the importance of seeking God’s will in their work.
Now if that isn’t cause for celebration, nothing is.
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