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No, Bonnie is being a little stupid at that point. She should completely and whole heartedly encourage and support her brother, (as long as he’s doing what’s right.) But that doesn’t mean she should take his weapon and go charging into war for him, or even take a weapon and go charging into war with him. She has many other things she could, and should, be doing, and she can still support him. Does that make sense.
(Btw, if her brother’s only cause he’s fighting for is her support then there’s problems. He should be able to fight and fight well for what’s right, even if she hates him for it.)
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
Yes, staying home and giving support would be best in a perfect world. I totally get that. But it’s all about Bonnie’s mindset, WHY is she doing this?
Bonnie hides behind all the traditional supportive things because those are the safe things, everyone expects you to do them and her brother has a hard time believing it’s genuine. She is making a fear-based decision right now. She chooses her own comfort over love, and that’s wrong. She isn’t willing to go out on a limb for her brother.
I would swallow my cowardly feelings and go with him. If that’s a better way to support him, you bet I will do it. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than nothing.
So, her story is about conquering fear for the ones you love.
Do you understand my point about extremes?
“Everything is a mountain”
I understand your point about extremes, but I still believe there are better ways for Bonnie to show love and support.
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
Of course, in the best scenario. Do you see how going with him represents victory over her fear? Can you imagine the smile on her brother’s face when she insists on doing everything he has to do, right alongside him? Even if it isn’t the best thing that could have happened?
“Everything is a mountain”
Uh… no.
My brother would most certainly not be smiling. He’d be saying, “What the heck are you doing?”
If she was going to go with him, at all, she should go as a nurse or something and work behind battle lines.
Out of curiosity, do you have a brother?
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
My brother would most certainly not be smiling. He’d be saying, “What the heck are you doing?”
Lol XDXD I get that. The brother would think she’s crazy at first and he’d be scared for her, but it’s still a gesture of love.
If she was going to go with him, at all, she should go as a nurse or something and work behind battle lines.
That’s one option. The soldier option still isn’t bad though, it’s an even more intense way of conquering her fear. I really like it; she may be timid at first but she would make for a super likable heroine.
Out of curiosity, do you have a brother?
I have three brothers, two sisters, and several boisterous guy friends :]
“Everything is a mountain”
I subscribed to this topic so I keep getting notifs 🤪
But this is an interesting conversation. I think I can agree with both points you ladies are making.
Yes, men and women have roles predetermined by God. I’m not going to marry some guy who relies solely on me to protect and provide for our family. (Nothing against stay-at-home dads, but you know what I mean.)
When this comes to fiction though, I don’t believe it’s wrong to have a strong female character or a male character who needs to learn how to be strong. The only time this becomes a problem is when the female character is not biblically a strong woman or when the man is overshadowed by the woman (feminism); or when you start treating the female or male character like the opposite gender. That’s obviously wrong.
Nuances aren’t bad though. It’s okay to explore those, but you have to make your lines clear. Sure, your male character tends to be timid or has emotional tendencies, but as long as you have him learn how to be a biblical man, then there’s nothing wrong with that. He’s not claiming to be a woman, he just has to learn some things. (I’d give an example of a strong female character, but I could rant forever about how they should or should not be written. XD) I think as long as you make your beliefs clear on the matter, then it’s okay.
….I hope most of that makes sense… lol!
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
yeah, I’m agreeing with @esther-c on this one.
it’s ok to mess around with the “societal norms” as long as you’re not messing with the Biblical roles. That second one’s kinda the whole problem with people these days who believe they can switch between the two (or that there’s a myriad of genders rather than simply two predesigned ones). That’s just not possible. It’s not right, and there’s both Biblical and scientific proof of that.
also, I do in fact have a brother and he said he wouldn’t trust me going to battle with him because if we both died, who would be left behind to take care of everything? Also he said he’d be too focused on trying to protect me while fighting and that could get us both killed.
I, personally, don’t mind the concept of a female character in battle, but I do believe it’d be much more beneficial for her to be doing edge of the fight work (medical work, spying outside the main battlefield, etc) than be on the front lines.
Honestly though this conversation is helping me design a character’s arc though. Like, I can take this information and apply it to her and it makes the story so much richer.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
BiNg!
*screen comes to life*
That would depend on what you mean by “norms”. To be blatant, I don’t like crossdressing, and other such greying of lines. I like lines. I also like to know exactly why that line is there, and if it is a good line. As long as this “norm” isn’t a biblical thing, or crosses a line I’ve personally drawn for myself, it might be interesting.
Now, if you mean emotional norms, maybe? For one thing, people often misrepresent love as physical affection. Love is way deeper than that. In fact, the Love chapter of the Bible (1 Corinthians 13) doesn’t even mention physical affection or emotion. The truth is, some people desperately need physical human connection. Some people not so much. That’s not really a gender thing. However, men and women do think differently, react differently, have different strengths and weaknesses spiritually and physically. That is a gender thing, and goes soul deep in creation. We are all made in the image of God, man and woman each in his or her own way.
Also, weak and timid female is not a Biblical, or even 1st century, ideal. Meek maybe, but meek doesn’t mean weak. Aragorn is meek. Which gives me the absolute most hilarious mental images, but this true!
Okay, I think we are each translating this conversation a little differently, a wonderful side-effect of communication. XD
No, I don’t want to write something bad. I do, however, want to write something True, and sometimes that means including the darkness to make the Light brighter. This is good, as long as the Light is being glorified, not the darkness. God is not the author of confusion, and I sure don’t want to be one either.
I’d like to advocate the woman warrior. A godly woman warrior is a thing very different from the guy-with-long-hair trope. Both do exist. I have read beautiful books with female characters who take up arms for one reason or another. Lucy from Narnia, Selene from The Ravenwood Saga, Eowyn from LotR, and Nacoras from a friend’s WIP. I’ve also read a few of those obnoxious paradoxes that seem to run rife in YA fiction. It depends on your themes etc.
I’d like to use Nacoras to illustrate what I mean by “godly woman warrior”, since nobody else here has emotional attachments to her.
Nacoras is a very powerful young woman (she’s half-elven, and from an allegory). Her best friend and mentor is an elven prince named Itharis. You could say that some of her “powers” surpass his, and vice versa. She is skilled in war (and fights like a lady) and does lead a small army to demolish a tower garrison in order to save Itharis’s life (as well as a bunch of other captives). He also does a good deal of saving her from time to time, because for them, “Love is taking an arrow for someone else, knowing they’d take one for you”. And yes, they get married part way through the series.
But this doesn’t cause a problem in the rich beauty of the story, because these two are completely submitted to each other, and God. He is her king, she is his queen, and together they serve the King of Kings.
As I noted, she fights like a woman. She is not as strong physically as the Elves (as a half-elven she’s a good deal stronger than most women, but that’s a point of genes, not gender). She’s a complete lady, wearing dresses and carrying herself with grace. She is quick and agile, light on her feet, tender at heart.
She uses her gifts with complete submission to the Giver of gifts, and therefore bears His authority.
And I hope that wasn’t all barking up the wrong tree. *sits back with a nervous smile*
First Grand Historian of Arreth and the Lesser Realms (aka Kitty)
Fork the Gork@whalekeeper @ellette-giselle @keilah-h @esther-c @koshka @loopy
Ok, Y’all. This topic has gone deep. XD Wow. That’s good though. We should really pull apart why we are writing what we are writing. I’m getting a fresh look at my own characters too.
There are many facets to what y’all are saying. I will say first off, that the reversal of the “damsel in distress” trope is also a cliche trope that is just as concerning if not more. I absolutely hate having weak male heroes like that!
*deep breath*
How does God view his creation?
In the beginning, both man and woman were made in His image. We show different parts of God’s character. If one role is destroyed, then the illustration is marred. However, that image may not be what we think it is.
I think we all agree that men and women are intrinsically different, and that is right. We should all be careful to portray clear lines, especially in this culture.
Why are you writing this reversal?
If the norm is not in the Bible, then it needs to be challenged. XD Seriously. I mean, many norms in this sinful world are not God’s will!
I will admit that I see nothing wrong with a woman who fights, depending on why she is fighting and how. The man was created to be a protective power in the lives of those who are weaker than himself. So was the woman, but in a different way. It is often said in my circle that a man guards the home, but a woman guards the heart.
Sometimes women have been forced to take up arms. Jael is called blessed among all women for killing Sisera. (Judges 5:24) She knew what needed to be done, and she did it, even when it was ugly. The truth is, there are some battles that only Women can fight. (Same goes for men) While these will probably not be in your story, it could be a good thing to address. Not every battle happens with physical weapons. (koshka already mentioned spiritual battles…)
It’s all in the spirit behind the writing. As for saving the imprisoned hero charrie, it really depends on the characters involved. Is she constantly saving he-who-be-helpless? (please no!) Do they save each other in different ways? (potential!) Remember, we lead by what we do, not by what we say. Be as careful and intentional about what you write.
You have listened to fears, child. Come, let me breathe on you... Are you brave again? -Aslan
On the other hand, do you mean that you believe it is wrong for a woman to enlist?
I personally can’t find scripture against a woman joining military, or fighting in real life on way or another.
Now, when women fight, things get ugly. My brother and I have discussed this before, having both done similar research, and I’d like to open this to anyone else reading through this. Girls and guys fight differently. Here’s a very general and probably mostly useless breakdown:
Guys: remain mostly rational, though not completely. They feel less pain, but have lower pain tolerance.
Girls: quickly lose most rational thought. Feel more pain, but have higher pain tolerance. Once most girls start to fight, they don’t care what it takes to win.
First Grand Historian of Arreth and the Lesser Realms (aka Kitty)
Fork the GorkMy perspective on this whole thing is similar to esther-c’s views.
Nothing’s wrong with a character having qualities that would more of be attributed to a man (like a Tom boy, or a girl who likes things boys normally do).
Now, the point where it gets wrong is when the roles of men and women are completely swapped to the point of distortion. It’s really all about two things: what’s the intention and what’s trying to be pushed?
If it’s basically writing a woman as a man, then that’s going too far. I don’t have much to add since a lot of good points have been said, so I’ll just leave it there."No! Monkeys should have pets, all monkeys should have pets!"
Once most girls start to fight, they don’t care what it takes to win.
Hah, you just described my charrie Huntress. Good thing too. I was worried I’d made her a little too masculine when fighting, but now I see I don’t have to completely trash those scenes, just edit them a bit.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
@theshadow same.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
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