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I don’t really read historical diaries for anything other than research. I tend to find I dislike the person after reading them, I don’t know why. I read Anne Frank’s diary and found it really hard to feel sympathy for her afterwards. I tend to prefer biographies or autobiographies, rather than actual diaries.
I think the thing I’ve noticed when I’ve read about them is that they tend to be very passive (though that certainly isn’t true for Lottie Moon) and that they are very often the heroines of romance novels. That is enough to put me off 😛
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Haha all right then.
I don’t think I know a lot of Southern Belle characters. I’ve watched the film for Gone with the Wind once and that’s about it. I didn’t like Scarlett, of course, but it was obvious that Scarlett wasn’t supposed to be looked up to as a role model or anything like that so I was fine with it.
I actually think of the Southern Belle archetype as a subset of the noblewoman or lady archetype (there’s lots of similarities to characters like my WIP’s MC for example). It’s just that Southern Belles come from a specific place and time period with a lot of historical baggage. So in addition to the usual criticism against ‘proper lady’ characters, Southern Belles have to deal with that as well.
That’s funny. You would think something more personable as a diary would get you to sympathise with someone more 😛
@seekjustice I read Anne Frank’s diary too, and I both liked it and hated it. 😛 I don’t know, I feel sorry for her because while she was not perfect by any means, I think perhaps if her family hadn’t been so messed up and her life hadn’t been so messed up, she might not have been so messed up.
But Agnes Lee’s diary is completely different! She is way better behaved than Anne of course, and she doesn’t write as dramatically as Anne. She doesn’t think the world revolves around her, as Anne seems to. 😛 Some of Agnes’s diary was a bit boring, but there were a few really fun passages, like one where she chases her cousin around the room, and some sweet passages, like when she became a Christian. She died very young too, and her sister Mildred finished the diary, so it was also interesting to see the different writing styles of the two sisters.
Southerners are known for their fiery tempers, so I wouldn’t really say “passive” is the right word. 😉 I think sometimes the women may come off as passive because Southern Belles are known for being extremely ladylike, so they might not speak a word even if they’re seething inside. Does that make sense?
Of course, modern portrayals may be different, because modern portrayals mess everything up. So historically inaccurate. 😛
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
@valtmy My reply to @seekjustice above covers some of what you’re talking about.
I agree that they’re a subset of the noblewoman/lady stereotype.
I don’t think they come from a specific time period, though. They originated in the pre-Civil War era, but they had existed before then, in women like Martha Washington and Martha Jefferson, and they have continued on until today, with “Southern Belle” characters popping up as modern women all over the place. If they’re from the South, and they’re pretty, they fit the stereotype, and I don’t think it matters what time period they’re from.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
Yeah, true. I tend to dislike high born lady types (it’s the Australian in me), so that’s probably why I don’t like them. I also dislike the Regency era ladies in Jane Austen 😛
And yeah, you would think so. But in my experience, people will write anything in their diaries and that usually shows you their more flawed side, which you tend to be able to ignore in a biography. I’ve also read George Muller’s diary, and that made me dislike him too (though I never liked him all that much beforehand).
Maybe I just read too many modern historical fictions?? Even though I tend to hate them.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Oh. The main criticism I’ve heard against Southern Belle books have a lot to do with racism and slavery etc. so I’ve always associated Southern Belles with the Antebellum South. Never really heard of Southern Belles outside that time period.
Hmm now that I think about it, my MC is sort of an East Asian ‘Southern Belle’ because Korean society during that period had a lot of slave labour… but that is class-based and not race-based slavery and there are a lot differences (household slaves received salaries, many slaves had their own families and land and lived mostly like tenant farmers or any other peasant, one of the Korean kings even granted slaves maternity and paternity leave etc.).
@seekjustice There are some GREAT modern his-fics, and there are some HORRIBLE modern his-fics. 😛
@valtmy Well, I can just say I’ve seen the type all over the place, in 1870s heroines, in 1910s heroines, 1930s heroines…you can see where this is going. 😉Well, I don’t really see why that makes her more similar to the Southern Belle than to the European noblewoman, since slavery in Europe ended only about a decade before it did in America, and it goes back even farther. There were the serfs and the peasants back in the middle ages, and that seems to match more with, as you say, the servitude by class, rather than color.
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
Given the historical genre’s obsession with the upper class, I doubt you can find many historical fictions that you would like.
Oh. I suppose there’s Southern Belles in other time periods which I probably never noticed.
Ah, that’s true. European serfdom completely slipped my mind for a moment. Funny how much the Atlantic slave trade has shaped the common perception of slavery even though it happened through a much shorter period in history, right?
@valtmy Yes, it’s funny – and kinda sad – how wrong modern perception of history is. There are so many things the history books just don’t tell you, and so many things they tell you that are just fabricated because “winners write the history books.” 😉
Anyway, I’ve got to go now. Goodnight!
@seekjustice Rochellaine’s next mission: Think of historical fiction books with heroines who are not rich so that SeekJustice will tolerate reading them.😉
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
That’s the problem. I absolutely adore historical fiction but can’t stand half of it. Or more than half of it. But yes, I have an extreme affinity to the “Common man”, which leads me to reading a lot of war historical fiction, because the war (both first and second world wars) were really won by the courage of the average Joe Bloggs. I think this feeling is an Australian thing, but probably also just part of my personality. I have very little tolerance for rich people and their whinging (looking at you, every Austen heroine ever).
Have you read any good modern his-fic lately? Ever since I graduated from children’s fiction I’ve only found a handful of modern his-fics that I’ve actually enjoyed, since most of them tend to be…urgh, romances.
I like you’re mission, by the way. 😀 And I don’t completely hate any rich heroine, I just tend to find them annoying. Especially when they’re continually talking about marrying for love vs money, and how terrible their lives would be if they couldn’t marry the rich guy, and how they always get to marry the rich fellow who they also happen to love! I find it annoying when the only thing they can think about is money and love, when common women were sort of worrying about what to eat that night.
This explains my love for Dickens, the Brontes and Hugo and distaste for Jane Austen.
Sorry, that became a rant. Goodnight 😀
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Goodnight!
Haha but would you be interested in reading my WIP anyway? My MC hits pretty much every point you’ve made. She’s noble, rich, whiny and uh… wishes that she is in a romance novel instead of the story that I’m writing. But she won’t remain noble and rich for long 😉
I’ve just got to pop back in here and say it’s hilarious that you have Joe Bloggs in Australia. In America we have John Does. 😛
(At least I assume that’s what you meant by Joe Blogg.)
I will definitely answer your questions about his-fics in our next conversation. 🙂 Goodnight!
"Sylvester - Sylvester!"
Well, you’re my friend, so I would feel bad if I couldn’t overlook your annoying MC (and yes, she is annoying. I hope she gets better before the end). 😀 But when its just a book written by someone I don’t know, I have no patience.
INFP Queen of the Kingdom commander of an army of origami cranes and a sabre from Babylon.
Haha that’s good to know.
Unfortunately, the other historical adventure/fantasy story idea I currently have has to do with upper class characters as well. But I have another historical story idea that is sort of like a mystery/detective story. I’m thinking that it will be about a procurator who is charged with the investigation and prosecution of crimes in an inquisitorial justice system. I want the setting to be historical because modern tech sometimes takes away the mystery but an aristocracy or upper class may not be necessary if I find an appropriate historical society to base it off…
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