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All good points.
And Ezra, what you said about emotion… sniff… sniff… well, let’s just say suggestion has a lot of power. And I’ll have you know the end of the RotK makes me bawl. I can’t just sit there and cry sedately like any normal, civilized person… I have to bawl. With both the movie and the book. But you’re right— it’s fulfilling. You feel happy. Because they did what they set out to do. They saved the world. But some people have to give up the world for others to keep it. Sacrifice. Loving something or someone enough to give up your own security, comfort, and life so that they will not have to make that choice. Sniff. I need a tissue. I think I must have allergies or something.
@Mark… Excellent! I am a huge proponent of the scary villain. The villain you lie awake nights worrying about and telling yourself that you’re being absolutely ridiculous, even though you couldn’t care less. The villain whose imagined presence will make you turn around in a dark room and stare nervously over your shoulder to make sure he’s not behind you. The villain whose face and laugh and eyes haunt your dreams during the day and your nightmares at night. The… you get the idea. The creep.
The hero of his own story— amen! No one really thinks he or she is evil, do they? They have to have convictions, even if they are the wrong ones. Even Hitler had convictions.
@Hannah…I agree that female villains would tend to be more crafty. More underhanded. More smooth and slippery and above suspicion. But I would also make the point that they would be more vulnerable, because unless they are extraordinarily hard and self controlled, they will lose it much more easily than a man. Women as a rule are more easily guided by their emotions. And I would also suggest that they would be more apt to rue their evil deeds than men. Not that they would be more apt to repent— but that their conscience would eat away at them until they practically ran mad. I don’t know if you’ve read much Shakespeare, but even Lady Macbeth, awful wicked woman that she was, suffered the torment of a guilty conscience and the burning memory of blood upon her hands.
I also think women may be more prone to be fanatics than men. Dedicated to one ideal and holding unceasingly to it, hearing nothing against it and following it blindly no matter the cost. Think of Bloody Mary. Actually, don’t think of Bloody Mary. End your day on a pleasant note.And Ezra, here’s your soapbox back. I only had time to reinforce the staples, but you’re making me dreadfully nervous teetering around on that shampoo bottle.
Excellent thoughts! (subtracting illusions to egosexual psychopaths.)
I especially love the idea of having the villain win or persuade the protagonist to his opinion. There must be some resolving factor though. It is not very biblical to have evil ultimately triumph, but for our story we could show evil gaining the major victory, or at least a major victory, which is never won back by right. For instance, we may spend 20 chapters showing the hero struggling valiantly against some gigantic evil force. we could so dramatize the evil force and so dramatize his desperate but relentless resistance that the reader absolutely falls in love with him. Come the mid 20s however, and the evil force which has been calmly trying to win him over to his/its side all the time, finally wins his heart and soul over to its own evil will. Through the same trials which tempted the hero however, one of our minor characters, who seemed weak at first, comes forth with a conviction against the evil so sound that no power earthly or heavenly could shake it. That’s actually a seriously good working plot. I might just use it some day. The idol of good, raised to heaven, smashed violently against the earth, true good rises. I love it!
As to female villains, one generally thinks of such as being highly manipulative, generally seductive. Such are not the type to usher trouble upon their enemy. They lead their enemy into the path that leads surely to trouble. They seem more than anyone the hero knows to be loving and kind, but they veil more malice than a male villain might think fair or acceptable. They are not good sports, but they appear to be. They are best I think when your reader feels an uneasiness about them, but feels that they would even still fall for her deceptions where they in the hero’s shoes, so tempting and believable are they.
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Did you mean to say ‘illusions’? Would not the word be ‘allusions’? I really struggle with those kinds of words myself. They sound the same, for goodness’s sake! Why should they be different? *sigh* Words are such malicious creatures. I can’t believe I love them as I do. There must be something wrong with me.
Despite my earlier protest about villains winning, I think you have a good idea there, Daeus. Let me know if you ever write it, and I’ll be more than happy to beta read it for you. 🙂 No, seriously. I will.
In the case of the female villain, I think it would be an excellent way to showcase how it can be very dangerous to place a woman in a position of too much authority. Maybe she didn’t start off bad. But she became overconfident, and went only a step too far. Now the rest of her life is ruined as she tries time and again to cover up that one mistake. One lie leads to another, until she is caught within a web of her own weaving and cannot escape the spiders that prey there. Of course, this could happen with any villain, but I think it would be stronger if seen from the perspective of a woman. I’m not exactly sure why I think that… maybe it’s because female villains are fewer and farther between, and so more fresh and unique.
I also think it would be a great way to showcase a wife’s influence for good or bad. I can always find an example in one of my own novels, because I like thinking outside the box and trying new things. So… I have a hero and I have a villain. Big deal. But neither the hero nor the villain could ever have got to where they are if their separate wives had not been behind them, encouraging them, managing the little things they didn’t have time for, and supporting them all the way. Both are excellent wives— only one is wicked and the other is not. And just because I said they are excellent wives does not mean they always get along with their husbands. They don’t. Far from it. They are very human. But they are extremely supportive. The only difference in how they relate to their husbands is that the wicked wife is even more wicked than her husband. She is his Lady Macbeth. And she became manipulative. She pushed him too far too quickly. And that was his downfall. Anyway… that’s that.Wow good points, Daeus. I like that plotline you worked out for the villain. I think its a little cliche to have the hero submit the villians ideals and beliefs but then have him change his mind near the end of the book and ultimately triumph. That’s why I like the idea of raising up a minor character to take his place, which is actually very biblical. In a way I think the reader will be disappointed. I mean, a minor character who was weak to begin with; what in the world do you expect him to do? But as the book goes on they see him in a new light, start to warm to him. And they realize how dull the book would have been otherwise.
I think female villains are more likely to gain the trust of the hero and maybe even the reader. Somehow women come off as more trustworthy. But I like the idea of the reader being uneasy. Sometimes it’s better to have the reader know a tad bit more than the hero so when he believes something the reader knows is a lie you’ll have them going, “No! You idiot don’t believe her! Shes only after such and such.” It may make the reader agitated but it’ll also keep them turning pages to see if the hero ever comes to his senses.:D
HC
Oh yes, allusions. Similar words can be consternating, but let’s look at it from the bright side. They are great for playing with, “playing with words”. I like to play.
Actually, I am seriously considering going ahead with that plot. It will have to be short though, since I am already working on a novel which is probably going to end up with 200,000 words.
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*whistles* that’s some serious writing there, Daeus. And tat plotline would definitely make for some good reading.
HC
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