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Okay you guys… I mean, really.
I’m back, and hopefully some sanity will return to this topic. I’ve a question for you. Either of you. I will assume you like questions. That, I believe, is what you call a logical assumption.
Why are all writers crazy?
Just curious.
Okay. Now for serious. Nice point you made about antagonists, Hannah. I like that a lot. I certainly enjoy writing antagonists. Look at it this way: just because two of your characters are protagonists instead of villains doesn’t mean they have to like each other. Many great people in the world absolutely cannot stand each others’ company. And what if your MC has relationship struggled within his own circle of friends? That will make for a much more emotionally charged and intense story.
For example, in the story I’m writing right now, my MC and his brother DO NOT get along. They don’t understand each other in the least, and cannot work together to save their lives. Each thinks the other is at fault, while both of them have problems they need to clear up on their own end. I contrasted this against my two villains, also brothers, who are a perfect team. They are cold-blooded killers and absolutely heartless liars, but they can practically read each others’ minds. This itself is a challenge to my MC winning in the long run, because to win, he has to learn to get along with his brother or the villains are going to steal it all in plowing ahead without a moment’s hesitation, perfectly sure of their own relationship and the ability to do practically anything that they set about together.I wouldn’t count on the sanity returning.
Thank you. Here’s an even bigger twist. You know how people like comfortable stories with happy endings and all conflict resolved? What if the protagonist and the antagonist never actually settle their differences? What if this goes on for a couple of books? Tragic, right?
That sounds like an awesome story! Love ones like that.
So back to our independently spirited farm girl…….
HC
That would be good suspense and a good way to keep the pages flipping! But I would only do it if I were certain I was going to be writing a sequel, otherwise it’s just like ‘what? I mean, come on! I wanted that to be resolved!’
I like happy endings as well as sad endings, provided both are well done. I myself believe a bit of tragedy and trauma makes any book better, and that even happy endings should have something painful and heartwrenching about them, but that’s my opinion, and I give anyone who feels driven the permission to disagree with me. XD
‘Nother question about villains— how can a villain contribute to the tragedy or joy of the end of your story? (Aside from killing everybody off and living happily ever after, that is).Wow! I made several points in what’s got to be less than seven hundred words! I’m so proud of myself!
Great job, Kate, I knew you could do it!
Ok, so yeah it might be better to resolve it or at least partly resolve it, maybe they call a truce. I have only really ever read one book that had a sad/semi-happy ending. The only book that ever made me tear up. Its called Counted Worthy by Leah E. Good. Its a Christian and entirely clean futuristic debut novel and I totally recommend it. But anyway, even though the ending was sad I loved it. Not all books have to end happily to be good.
Ok there’s two ways I can think of for the villian:
1) turn good (boring)
2) Kill the hero (awesome)Here’s an idea that nobody’s done to my knowledge. What if the villian converted the hero to his way of thinking? (Plot twist anyone?)
HC
OW! N-n-no! Bad plot twist, bad plot twist! *starts hyperventilating, biting fingernails with chattering teeth*
NOOOO! HELP!I suppose I asked for that. So much for theme. So much for good triumphing over evil. So much for everything the hero went through to defeat the villain. SO MUCH FOR ALL THAT!
Okay, I’m done being upset now. The idea is bold and has originality, I’ll say that for it. I will say that for it.
And I did say ‘aside from killing off everybody and living happily ever after’, didn’t I? Oh well… *sigh* I guess I can’t have my cake and eat it too.
I’ve not heard of the novel you mentioned, but it sounds good. The only novel I can think of off the top of my head that really made me cry (and I cry pretty easily) is Dickens’s ‘A Tale of Two Cities’. Oh— and one of my own novels. But that doesn’t count. Besides, I haven’t even written it yet. 😛
Is this the villains topic? Can anyone think of anything else to say on villains? I’ll listen to anyone with a fresh point to discuss… yes, even you, Ezra. C’mon. You had some really wise and intelligent points earlier. Even bordering on genius. And yes, I meant that.Hahaha as much as it hurts that’s the kind of reaction I like to see. It’s new. It’s far from cliche. It stimulates the grey cells. Thank you.
I have not read A Tale of Two Cities yet. But hey, it’s good you cry over your own novels. You know what they say, “no tears in the author, no tears in the reader.”
(Don’t encourage him. He’ll end up with a strong female villain that brings hope who gets swept off her feet by a prince before turning into a witch and then living happily ever after.) I couldn’t resist. 😀 Lol no seriously, discussion is welcome.
HC
*Sits down with his cake, and eats it too* Maybe you can’t, but I can.
How inconsiderate of you! D= I was all set to just skim this topic, and then someone said I need to do something, so I go back like a good little boy, read all those long posts, and it turns out…I didn’t actually need context.
It’s most…rude. I can’t believe you two.
…Hannah you stole my idea!
OK, but let’s get…as close to serious as I can be. I’ll actually talk about stuff you guys were talking about. It’s easier. And relevant. (But sadly it’ll be on a time budget, as I’m going to be binge watching Agents of SHIELD to recover from my ten hour car trip today.)
It’ll probably just be me re-wording stuff I’ve said before. Oh well. I have a one track mind.
I like those ideas. As in…the ones you talked about. Hero turning bad, villain winning, etc, etc.
So I’ll think on how to make them work. It’s a rather intriguing concept.
And time’s up. Oh well. I’ll make my /big/ post tomorrow. This is the teaser trailer.
I find it hard to take anything that is attached to your profile picture seriously. 😀
I stole no idea….it just came to me. This’ll be an interesting read I’m sure.
HC
He’s still thinking.
Maybe I can help. I’ve got a new take on this. What about female villains? What about them, hm? Why are the rules different for these gals than for male villains? Are the rules different? Does it matter? How will female villains act differently than male villains? Are they stronger? Weaker? Craftier? More stupid? More dangerous? Less likely to be taken seriously?
Yes, I am aware that I am placing myself in a very vulnerable situation with this post, especially with Ezra on this topic. 😀 Just don’t turn either Hannah or me into a witch and use us as examples… please.
Actually, I will be more than happy to furnish any use I can.
@Hannah: That is a good and right thing. I should not be taken seriously. Unless I specifically request it. (But oh! Then we have infinity in progress right there.)
I want a picture of me that is identical to Daniel’s except the opposite direction.
Ahem, ahem. *Dusts off soapbox* I am ready to begin.
The first thing I shall be long-winded about (probably), is the Villain winning. A cool idea. And it’s happened before…let me think of these examples…It sorta happens in Hunger Games, on a psychological level. Technically speaking, Snow won in the end. He destroyed Katniss, and most people in the rebellion. In Animal Farm, the pigs win. The stinkin’ commies did it in the end. Lord of the Flies ends with Ralph crying for, “innocence lost”. The evil won.
Like anything (and yes, this particular paragraph will appear in various shapes and forms whenever I talk about writerly stuff…but application of it /should/ vary. In theory.) these sorts of things need to fit the story. They should never, EVER, be in a story just to ‘make the story cooler’. Then it feels cliche, because you’re just plastering something on the story that doesn’t really belong and saying, “Look! I’m original!” and even if you’ve never heard of anyone else doing it…too bad, so sad, it’s not true. (I shed bitter tears over this fact.) So the question then is; In what circumstance is it a good idea to have the villain…win?
Well, as I do not have an original mind, I’ll just use mah beautiful examples. Hunger Games (as you’ve probably guessed) is this done /wrongly/. (At least in my opinion. Fiction is a realm where something can be technically wrong, and still work, and it’s no one’s place to say it shouldn’t be done. But I don’t like Hunger Games for this reason, and so example right there.) Hunger Games presents us with an /idea/. But it’s very hard to decipher what this idea is. The unfortunate thing about it, is that we have no meter with which to measure the ideas presented to us. No one is good. No one presents an ideal contrary to the bad idea. Yes, people say that Prim, and Peeta are ‘the good’, but even they do not give something solid. That’s the problem. There’s nothing solid to latch onto. It’s all just a nebulas gas floating around, and I don’t know what I’m supposed to make of it. (Sometimes this can be a good thing…but in a case where I don’t even understand what I’m reading…it’s bad.) Without any clear idea of /why/ evil wins, evil shouldn’t. It’s something the reader can’t relate to. (Obviously, in this instance this is not entirely true, as HG is something many people love. Like I said, there are technical rules to fiction, but breaking them isn’t always bad. People are people…varying tastes and stuff.)
Animal Farm is more a political commentary, so for an example of the villain winning done /right/ I present Lord of the Flies. (It’s a beautiful book, I highly recommend it, unless you are easily traumatized, it contains some…disturbing content, and is a bit of a disturbing book, but it is beautiful.) It perfectly presents the corruptness of man’s nature. That’s it’s theme. (Proving, incidentally, that a theme does not have to be something /good/ just something /true/.) In this book, the theme and the conflict are on two separate courses, but are interwoven (which is a good and right thing that every book should do.) The conflict is solved in a favorable fashion, so that the reader is happy and content. The them is also resolved, but in a way that will make the reader…despair really. But that’s the point. The point is for the reader to feel fulfilled in reading the story, but also to take away what the author was trying to say.
That is how I’d approach the concept of having a villain win. Maybe you are trying to show that ultimately, “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?”. The /story/ needs to be such that the reader will not be disappointed at the end, but the /concept/ can be anything you wish.
And I’ll break off this post, because it’s already long enough, and type out another one about how the villain is supposed to add to the tragedy and joy and all that of the story. *Removes self from slightly flattened soapbox*
Wow… I knew you could do it. I knew it was somewhere in you. All that wisdom… how can you bear to hide it?
No, seriously, that was a great post.
Love this point: ‘The point is for the reader to feel fulfilled in reading the story, but also to take away what the author was trying to say.’
That is true for every theme and sub-theme and sub-sub-theme. We would all do well to remember it.
Also… I’d be willing to fix that soap-box for you. I think the poor flattened thing needs some repair.Pfft. Theory is easy. Anyone can know theory. See, now you know the theory I just told you.
I’ll get back to you once I get good at /implementing/ theory.
That’d be awfully good of you. It’s every so difficult to find a good soapbox repairman.
@Kate, you are a brave soul but this a very interesting question.
So now, I think female villains would be more likely to be craftier. You can get some pretty creepy female villains and it’s wonderful. They say poison is a woman’s weapon but then so are assassins. Just because a woman wants a murder carried out doesn’t mean it has to be executed (murderous pun) in the way a woman would do it. Adds to the mystery. Think of a story where a woman commissioned a bunch of murders but nobody can pin them on her. I like to listen to old time radio mysteries on YouTube a lot. Oh you should try it, they’re such fun!
@Ezra I guess I can see your point even though I’ve never read any of the above mentioned books. If a villain is going to win make sure it suits your book for that plotline to be in there and Mak sure it’s well done.
As to your profile picture, I’m glad we agree though it might become confusing to have two Daniels floating around KP albeit at two different angles.
HC
While my soapbox is out for repair, I shall borrow this shampoo bottle. *Mounts bottle* It’s a little bit wobbly, but a guy’s gotta do what a guy’s gotta do.
And now I shall speak about that thingy…um…oh yes, Villains contributing to the different emotions and stuff, specifically joy, and happiness and stuff.
So cool. So rad.
Funny thing: I can’t think of a single story I’ve read or watched that I loved that did not make me sad in some way. Never have I heard a story where I felt fulfilled at the end that did not have pages of me either getting teary eyed or smouldering with deep anger as I turned the pages.
This is the key.
The conflict in a story is only conflict if…it has conflict. (It’s like that famous philosophical line: “Everything that is…is.” It’s a brilliant line. Seems so stupid, but spend about fifteen minutes thinking about what it means for something ‘to be’. Then it will /really/ turn your mind.) In this way, the villain, or representation thereof (contrary ideal in other words) should invoke an emotion in the reader. Good is only good if it has evil to show it to be so. (At least, that’s how our human minds must comprehend it. Obviously, before creation God was still good, but there was no evil.)
Lemme ‘splain: What would we think of Gandalf if it wasn’t for Sauruman? We’d think he was a good wizard, and pretty handy to have along. (Not to mention, if you ever need to bar someone passage…he’s the guy you need.) But what is he with Sauruman? Suddenly, he becomes faithful. Suddenly, he’s that much more humble, because he reject the power Sauruman embraced. Suddenly, his becoming white is so much more significant.
See, I’ll use a non-villain example here. Again, from tLotR.
Remember the end of RotK? ‘Course you do. It’s sad. The little tear crawls down your cheek. You feel crushed…
But…happy. There’s a joy that comes with the departure of Frodo, and that’s the point. The point is not to just give us an emotion at different points throughout the book. The point is to weave the circumstances together to make each emotion make sense.As people, we’re built to understand situations and react to them. If I read about some dark evil guy wrenching babies from their mothers, and killing the babies before mom’s eyes…I’m going to be real sad, and hate the guy. Everyone would.
In the same way, if you wrote about a new mother holding her first child, while the dad smiles on…the reader would be happy. Obviously.
The point of the villain being emotional is that he adds a new layer to this. Emotions are something that should never conflict. They only meld. Blending together throughout the whole story. One emotion leads to the next in the same way scenes do.
And in that way the villain brings joy or sadness to the novel. He is used to amplify certain things, to round others out. Without him, the emotion can happen. Use him to make it fit.
*Boots shampoo bottle away*
A perfect villain is the foil of the protagonist, is the hero of his own story, and has perfectly justifiable reasons in his own eyes. Think of it as what the hero might become if he fell.
I think an awesome, biblical way to add this to our own stories is to make the villains motives the same as the world. Because to the world the villains motives are perfectly fine, this is when we show that they are not. They are evil.
That being said I think the best villains are ones you have to be scared of. Grey villains are good, but you gotta be scared of them. So the hierarchy is . . .
#Scary
#SoRelatable
#GreyAt least in my book 🙂
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
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