Villains | Kingdom Pen https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/feed Mon, 03 Mar 2025 23:16:41 +0000 https://bbpress.org/?v=2.6.12 en-US https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4486 <![CDATA[Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4486 Tue, 18 Aug 2015 01:14:39 +0000 Kate Flournoy What do y’all think? What makes a villain great? I’m not looking for good— I’m looking for great. What do you like to see in a villain? Why do you like to see it? How can you take the villainly qualities you admire in the great villains of literature and apply them to your own work?
What do you not like to see in a villain, and why? What is your favorite literary villain? What is your least favorite?

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4488 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4488 Tue, 18 Aug 2015 01:34:43 +0000 Daeus I like the very refined villain. The one you could almost respect or honor. One with great self control, but internal fire. A man who’s morals conflict but who manages not to seem hypocritical by some unexplainable power.

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4499 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4499 Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:19:31 +0000 Kate Flournoy I’d have to agree. There’s something very specially human about those kinds of villains. It’s like you can almost relate to them— you can look at them, and you can see sometimes that they may at one time, at one point, have had a chance to be good men— and they could have done it, too, if they had only tried a little harder. Sometimes you are almost certain that they can come right in the end, and then you get your heart broken when they cannot break free of who they have become after all. Those are the villains I don’t forget, because you have an emotional attachment to them even if you hate them. You can’t help hoping deep down inside that they are not without hope themselves.
Now on writing these villains, what are some of the ways we as writers can portray their humanity and their ‘honor’, yet still show beyond a doubt that they are evil and wicked? Because we undoubtedly have to be careful about writing a villain who is half good, half bad (to speak broadly). If we aren’t careful, our readers could get confused about what we are promoting and what we are condemning. It can be difficult— and this, I think, is where the rule ‘show, don’t tell’ is very strongly true.
‘(Hey, you over there! Psst! You! Reader! It’s me, the author, talking. I need to tell you something. This villain guy, the one with the impeccable sense of honor and the noble aspirations, is really pretty wicked. I’m just telling you so you know— because you can’t really see it, but you need to know that he is wicked so you don’t get confused. Trust me, this is one seriously evil guy. I’m telling you, and you better believe me, because I’m the author. I know.)’
Excuse me? If the reader cannot see within the context of the story that the villain is evil, they won’t believe it even if the author constantly breaks in on the story and assures them that it is so. So what do you think?

]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4506 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4506 Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:02:06 +0000 Daeus I think the major thing is to show that they are inconsistent. Even if they do appear almost honorable, it must be apparent that their morality comes from a false sense of justice which has come forth from their own imagination. There are at least two ways to do this. First, your villain could legitimately think that he is doing the best thing when he is not, or maybe he thought his original actions were justifiable and just didn’t reconsider when he grew more wicked. Secondly, he could truly disregard the law which haunts him in some areas, but hold to it in others. If so, he probably holds to the former ways he had been taught from mere habit, or a sympathy for those times. In either case, the villain was probably formed into the man he became by trauma and trial. Such are not the easy going type who find no problem being consistently evil. He has probably gone through some fire which has at once purified him and brought out his true inner nature.

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4510 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4510 Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:12:49 +0000 Kate Flournoy Good thoughts. What are some good ways to actually show this in the story, instead of giving it to your reader in so many words?
Say we have a number one type villain— the one who thought his original actions were justifiable, and did not notice when he slipped farther and farther into evil. We could tell the reader that such was the case, but why not spice it up? Why not show the villain as a very young man, yet unsullied and untried, tempted into some ‘minor’ sin. Let’s be stereotypical for a moment, and say he fell into the wrong company and was persuaded to risk money that was not his in gambling. He only wanted to do it once— it wasn’t such a big deal. Maybe he even did it for the right reasons— maybe his mother was dying of a fatal illness, and there was not money for a doctor. Maybe his father is drowning in debt, and he wants to help him rise above that. And maybe he even wins this first gamble. Okay. That wasn’t so bad, was it? Now the next time he is in need of money, he will turn to that ‘easy’ method of procuring it again. And he will be less cautious in risking what is not his, because he won the first time. But this time he loses, and if he cannot get the money back he’ll end up in terrible trouble from those to whom the money he lost belonged. He must get it back at all costs— and it does cost more than he was ever willing to pay in the beginning. It costs him his name, his conscience, his honor, his honesty, his whole life as he had planned it. It leads into robbery and blackmail and maybe even murder.
But it began so little— it was so harmless. And now it is too late. The deed is done, and you cannot undo the past. Perhaps you could break away from it, but our villain is too proud for that. He cannot bear the thought of coming humbly begging to be taken back into the fold and forgiven by those he wronged as if they were superior than he— more noble or virtuous. And so he always remembers and is tormented by the knowledge that had he only once not taken that path, he could have lived in honor and security. He could have been the hero of a story— but instead, because of his pride and his stubborn unwillingness to seek forgiveness, he becomes the villain. And he suffocates his conscience into either believing that he did right, or forgetting that he ever did wrong. Not that it does not still torment him— but he tells himself that he is in the right.
What are your thoughts?

]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4511 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4511 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 00:55:47 +0000 Daeus What a large question. You had a good example of how we might show the decline of a man. The one thing missing though is what happened to him afterwards. We know what brought him to where he is, but we don’t really know where he is. Let us assume though that the conscience which plagued him led him to continue to uphold those noble causes which, wrongly pursued, had led him to destruction. He continues to fight for right (or at least what he thinks is right but is actually a hybrid of right and wrong) though through villainous means and with purely villainous excursions.

Your method of showing his state will depend somewhat on how greatly you will delve into his past. You may want to writ a Les Mis and turn every minor character into major character who requires extensive chronicling, and this can be good, but there are limits to how much you can do this. You may have to show his past, his character, his struggles through short but highly revealing events. If you took the long route, it would be easy. You would show his inward struggles the way you would your main character’s. If you can’t spare so many chapters on his past, you will have to be more tricky. Events are usually the best way to fashion character and there is no exception here. Let us pursue an example. “Mr. Villain has been outlawed and resides in the ruins of the mountains with his fierce but loyal band of renegades. Along comes a reckless band of aristocrats in gilded carriages. When scouts report to this villain the apparent position of the travelers, his eyes light with ruthless fire. Down swarm the bandits. There is a sharp resistance by the gallant men of the party of whom all are speedily killed by the bandits. Springing into the carriages, the ruffians proceed to cary away all valuables and yank out the annoyingly resistant women, knives to their necks. The villain/captain upon seeing them, orders with unexpected fervor and ferocity that the women be let completely alone, that not even their jewelry be taken. Being fearful, the men obey. Booty taken and carriages flying away like deer in the chase, they proceed back to their mountain recesses. That night, in the captain’s private office chamber of the cave, one of the officers gives his report to the captain. After several minutes of discussion in which the officer notices the captain to be absorbed in his own thoughts, he broaches the question which has been deeply plaguing him on the cause for the captains order. With eyes of fire brighter than that behind him but a face which in all appeared solemn and cynical, the captain replies slowly,’I could not forget my sister. How could I?’ The last sentence seems wrathful and he clenches his fist. After a few moments the intruding officer feels his presence a sacrilege and eagerly retires.” Now then, this would only fill a chapter’s length but we learn a vast amount about the villain even thought there remains an air of mystery which is actually good. And not only that, but we included a fight scene! Dramatic situations are always good opportunities for defining character.

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4512 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4512 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:12:38 +0000 Hannah C What makes a villain great? I love this question. *rubs hand together*

Ok, when you think of a villain do you automatically think of the stereotypical villain covered in filth with a shifty glare and bad breath? Probably most do. I, however, think that truly great villains are the ones that act like everyone else. The ones you would never suspect. The ones that are charming and charismatic and are written so well that you fall in love with them and want to protest with the author that they made a mistake in who they picked as the “bad guy”. I like the villains that have just as winning a smile as any main character ever did. I like the villains that speak with a wistful touch of sadness when they think of their past. I want the villains that are so convincingly real and down to earth that you’re just as surprised as the main character is when they show their true colors.

That’s what makes great villains in my opinion.

HC

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4516 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4516 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:18:53 +0000 Kate Flournoy A band of trusty renegades! I would give anything for one of those at my beck and call. (Not). Haha!
For myself, I have to admit I like my villains to come in all different shapes and sizes and types. I don’t think I have a definitive favorite to either read about or write about— just so long as it is well written, and by that I mean is both realistic and villainly. I like super evil villains as well as Daeus’s conflicted villain and your charming villain, Hannah, because even super evil villains are not wholly and completely without good in them. A good rendition of such a villain will showcase that, even if you utterly hate the villain and hope with everything in you that he dies. One of my favorite literary villains is probably Chauvelin (SHOW-vlan, to use the French pronunciation, and SHAW-ve-lin to use the English) from ‘The Scarlet Pimpernel’. There you have a completely cold-blooded fanatic, blindly and utterly devoted to the Revolution (the French Revolution— historical fiction is the ‘Scarlet Pimpernel’. Oh no! Now I’m starting to speak in reversed sentences!) yet one who is so quiet and calm and in control— and killingly clever. He’s not showy or charming or conflicted— but wholly devoted to his cause, and you have to admire him for that, however grudgingly, and however much you detest the French Revolution.
You had a great mini-scene example of how we could show our conflicted villain’s backstory, Daeus. I had one suggestion, though— would he really have told his sub-captain about his sister? How about just ‘I could never forget her‘? I know, I know… I’m nitpicking. Just a quick thought.
Hannah, I like your idea of a charming villain. Really I do. The only thing I can think of to caution about for writing that kind of villain is you have to make sure that when he reveals his true colors, he does so in such a way that it is IMMEDIATELY apparent how evil he is, or the reader is going to be in denial because they were so charmed by him to begin with. They won’t want to believe that he is evil. So you need an extreme show of wickedness from him. Maybe have him tell a complete lie that he knows is a lie that ends up sending someone we care about to their death. (A minor character will work fine— so convenient for killing off, poor things). Anyway… my two cents.
And what do you guys think about the villain who isn’t really a villain himself, but has someone behind him, driving him on? Macbeth, anyone?

]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4518 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4518 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:31:02 +0000 Hannah C True, I can see how making it immediately clear that he is evil would work, however, I also think that having your reader in denial is great too. Think of the bad people in the world today, think of the “villains”. Not always can you see past their charming and charismatic facade to the evil underneath. That is how people are deceived. I think that make a really convincing villain in books. A bit of denial is good for the reader.

As for making the lie immediately evident and killing off a minor character (love the way you put that lol) I think that is also a excellent plotline. I really love writing stories containing a lot of tragedy and treachery. Call me morbid if you like, you wouldn’t be the first. 😀

Both scenarios are very diverse. I guess it would just depend on the way you are writing the story.

HC

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https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4522 <![CDATA[Reply To: Villains]]> https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/villains/#post-4522 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:48:46 +0000 Kate Flournoy Good points.
Morbid?! My dear young lady, you sound like a girl after my own heart!

Oh and by the way, Daeus, I thought of a literary villain that fits your category of conflicted, I think. Captain Nemo, from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Have you read it? He was my favorite character. I know, I’m not supposed to love the villain, but I pitied him so desperately in the end that I couldn’t help it. There was and is no doubt in my mind that he did very wrong things— but you have to wonder what his backstory was, and what drove him to do what he did. If you’ve read it, you’ll remember you never really find out why he was where he was, or why he went around sinking ships and killing thousands of people, except maybe a few vague references to some tragedy, or some terrible thing in his past that called for revenge.

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