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I wasn’t necessarily saying that…… Well, now that I think about it I actually am saying God should be there.
See, the big issue for me was that Rae said that her character found joy and peace and I was wondering where he found that if it wasn’t from God.
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
Oh, also, I’m gonna ask someone to stop us if we get too heated. I have a tendency to do this when I really get the ball rolling. ellette-giselle If Whaley agrees, would you mind?
Yes, I can kill this if I need to, though it looks like so far y’all have kept your heads. lol
Man is born for the fight, to be forged and molded into a sharper, finer, stronger image of God
I think there’s a place for stories that present the Gospel, but also stories that may not necessarily present the Gospel. God calls us to all write different things, and honestly? I think that’s what’s most beautiful about these Christian writing communities and what each of us write
Exactly! If we were all writing the same thing, writing would be mindless. There are many things to talk about in this world. And that doesn’t mean we are denying God’s existence.
How are Marcel and Seb and all of the babies?? 🥺 I have to know
Most of the babies are good! Except fourteen-year-old Seb Lovejoy; he is not doing well. 😅 It’s one of those times when I realize the full implications of something or other, and now the iceberg is deep, lol.
I love the trope where a character seems contextually goofy, but takes a serious tone no one saw coming. 😐👌 So good… The newest example I can think of is Spot from Spiderverse. Or a less intense character might be Sokka from AtLA. I love writing my character because he exists in his world TO BE humorous, and a lot of the darker parts come from that.
All that said, going well for me 😁
I know, I know🫣XD I’m just used to writing a lot🤪😅 But it’s been nice taking a break too, and I’ve been working on making video/music edits (Marvel, and it’s sooo much fun🤩). And honestly now that I’m taking one…I needed a break from writing, desperately💀😂
Breaks are so hard at first, but they’re good for you. It will clear your mind, Freedom! *Waves hands over your head mystically*
We can portray our faith in various ways, and if you don’t think you’ve been called to write what one would deem Christian fiction, then don’t…
Yes!! I have never felt I have to directly imply God’s existence because there are many ways to support his existence in subtext. Whiiich I will talk about in my post to Rae because I need to organize my posts XD I agree with you.
“Everything is a mountain”
girl I thought you seriously dissagreed what I said. I’m not used to you responding to discussions with such short answers and I’m used to ‘touching a nerve’ meaning like…
I’ve been stressing about it sm today LOL
I gasped out loud when you said that 😮 Oh no… I’m so sorry I came off that way! I replied quickly because I had to leave for class, and didn’t think through what I sounded like.
ok, ok. Well I’m very glad to be of help. Sometimes, people don’t like the argument of meds for mental health. I was once at a church that said depression is just selfishness, and I know some people try to keep their kids off meds no matter how much they need them. Some people just think it’s wrong, so when I share my opinion, I don’t know whether or not I’ll upset people.
No no no I don’t disagree at all!! My mom actually has to use self-injection (responsibly) at home. And although depression can feel like selfishness when you’re experiencing it yourself, it is anything but. It isn’t a choice. Nor a sin.
Writing God into a story is really really hard, and it’s not something I would want to mess up. It can go well, or it can go badly. A lot of you here are familiar with the wingfeather saga, which was written by a Christian, but I think has trouble portraying God like ours. The ‘maker’ in this book seems distant and confusing, because they don’t have a bible to read like us (Which adding would have created a whole other level of worldbuilding confusion). If it were set in our world, maybe it would have worked, but it’s fantasy.
Wingfeather is nostalgic for me in some ways, but I will never say it is a masterpiece of writing. It kind of single-handedly guided teens into writing allegorical worldbuilding, and allegories are probably the easiest genre to flunk. These teens are totally free to write them and they become better through practice. I think it isn’t the best choice of genre though if you’re to learn the complexities of arcs/motives/thematic assumptions, because adding a Creater makes it black and white.
I know people say it can be subtle, but… How subtle can it really be?
Something that is a big part of my book is the wonder of experiencing the world. The evidence of our creator is everywhere, you just have to look around.
I’ve read secular novels where the world’s beauty is a huge part. They may not have a creater worldview, but they can’t help acknowledging a miracle of existence. The stones cry out.
“Everything is a mountain”
So, as I said, I’m just debating the opposite side from you, so I most likely do not believe what I’m saying. In fact, I’m personally more inclined to agree with your side.
Alriiiiight *cracks knuckles* Hopefully this makes sense (:-P)
I agree that sometimes a gospel storyline can feel forced when added randomly into a plot, but it just has to be done right. And shouldn’t it be the main topic anyways? Jesus should have center stage in our lives, so shouldn’t He have center-stage in our writings as well? And while I agree that the best way to read the Gospel is in the Bible, that doesn’t mean you can’t include it in your stories. Just point back to the Bible, that’s what we should be doing all the time anyways.
Think of this another way. Shouldn’t we treat the Gospel with respect for what it is? And writing for what it is? They have different purposes.
In different times of life, we are either actively speaking of the Gospel, or just living in accordance with our philosophy. When we talk about the Bible, we dedicate our entire minds to its teaching and leave no distractions. The Bible speaks for itself. At all other times, we live in a way which reflects our philosophy. We don’t necessarily speak the Word through eating or sleeping, but since imo the world is already God-coded, what need is there to actively push the Word into everything? It’s already there, just extremely subtle to human minds.
Basically, Jesus is center stage. But our writing is a poor way to communicate him directly. Any human activity other than focused praise/prayer better reflects the world-revealed philosophy of God (in nature) because our creativity is part of that nature. Nature cannot recite John 3:16. That was not in its ability nor its purpose. Its purpose is to imply the cause of itself without giving the answer away completely.
There are many ways that Nature speaks truths, but I’m not going to go on that rampage without someone prompting me lol. (I will just say that “Nature” also refers to human nature.)
But can’t you also have these alongside the Gospel? Like comparing the happiness the world experiences to the happiness of a Christian through Christ? While it may not be the Gospel itself, if you point back to Christ and the Bible, isn’t it similar?
Yes, that is my point 😂 Some of these authors did not mean to do that, but they are part of Nature and thus cannot help it.
Also, I’ll just say, the very existence of writing and creativity is meaningful. Humans still explore the mysterious realm of ideas which Plato theorized of so long ago. The spiritual realm is only a hop, skip, and a jump from human communication.
We were born for this.
Once again. We were born into Nature, and given the Gospel. We should use the Gospel to communicate itself, and embrace Nature for its own strengths and weaknesses. Writing falls under Nature; it is not on par with the Gospel and thus should not directly imitate it when its strengths lie elsewhere.
Does any of this make sense? :’)
“Everything is a mountain”
Also like, if you said Gospel-thematic stories were the only good stories… you’re cutting out a whole lot of stories. Stories can be chill, they don’t have to carry the whole fate of the world on their backs. Should I attack a puzzle mystery show for not including a biblical message? You might as well critique every human-made thing with the same standards.
“Everything is a mountain”
@freed_and_redeemed @mineralizedwritings @whalekeeper Gonna have to go with your point of view here….
Think of Lord of the Rings or The Green Ember. These stories don’t have explicitly Christian themes or even mention the existence of God much, although it’s kinda implied. But they were written by authors who wished to show a deep truth–the triumph of good over evil, and while it’s a stretch, you could say that Aragorn and Smalls, the king characters who take their thrones in the end, could partially be considered analogues of Jesus.
I write a lot of fan fiction. Thus, not a lot of room for obviously Christian themes at times. But in my experience clean fanfic, especially in the way of ships/pairings, is hard to find. So I try my best to write any romantic pairings I might have (there are a lot lol) as God-honoring as I know how to.
Simply because of my worldview, I might end up with an offhand reference to characters believing in God once or twice over the course of a fic, but usually I don’t go too much into it. The most I’ve had to go into it was a character’s near-death experience, but even he doesn’t mention a lot of what happened.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
while it’s a stretch, you could say that Aragorn and Smalls, the king characters who take their thrones in the end, could partially be considered analogues of Jesus.
If I hear anyone saying this and actually believing it, then they will have the wrath of a German on their hands!
(I understand you’re just mentioning this an not necessarily saying it’s true or not, but I’d like to address this issue, since I’ve seen it pop up among LOTR fans with Gandalf and such before.)
So, this is a rabbit trail, but it somewhat relates to our topic…
I can say, with a 100% certainty that Aragorn was NOT meant as an sorta Jesus figure, or to represent anything in Christ.
First of all, Tolkien never liked allegory, so I doubt he would write character meant to be a representation like unto or as another person.
Second, Aragorn makes many mistakes! He didn’t scout out Weathertop beforehand, he didn’t leave Bree that night, he even says that everything he has done has gone amiss when the Fellowship is broken! Would Jesus ever do that? No.
Let us also consider that Aragorn has an arc. Jesus is perfect, so therefore, there is no need for a character arc. actually, Jesus can’t have an arc unless he is not God. When we meet Aragorn, he hides in the shadows, always watchful, but rather quiet and mysterious, preferring to not make himself known. We’d almost think him a little timid if we didn’t see he could be a brave and rational fighter when need presses. Then, in the Two Towers, he leads the Rohirrim with King Theoden, and then the armies of Gondor up o the black Gate in The Return of the King. he grows from a Ranger, to a King, from the mysterious shadows, to the front of the line with his sword flashing in the light of the sun, a crown upon his brow, and a voice that inspires his men in battle.
Aragorn can’t be a figure meant to have Jesus qualities. It just doesn’t fit.
Yeah, so i just wanted to address that for not particular reason other than…well I guess I just wanted to talk about Aragorn really…
Also, I really love how his name reflects his change, from Strider, to Aragorn to King Elessar. Sure, Aragorn was always his name and such, but at the beginning, we basically only called him Strider, the Aragorn. I just find it interesting.
"You need French Toast."
#AnduthForever (hopefully 💕)Oh, and I don’t know if S.D. Smith meant Smalls to be a sort of Jesus figure, but if he did, I’m sorry, but I’m, never reading The Green Ember again
"You need French Toast."
#AnduthForever (hopefully 💕)to be honest, I was holding off a little bit on replying because I just am not sure how to correctly continue this, but I shall try.
Think of this another way. Shouldn’t we treat the Gospel with respect for what it is? And writing for what it is? They have different purposes.
But the purpose of a Christian is to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel”, to be a light in darkness, and writing is a way we can do that! It is a command from Jesus Himself to preach the Gospel, so shouldn’t we be using the talents and means God has given us to obey that command? Shouldn’t writing’s purpose, for a Christian, be the same purpose as they have themselves?
In different times of life, we are either actively speaking of the Gospel, or just living in accordance with our philosophy. When we talk about the Bible, we dedicate our entire minds to its teaching and leave no distractions. The Bible speaks for itself. At all other times, we live in a way which reflects our philosophy. We don’t necessarily speak the Word through eating or sleeping, but since imo the world is already God-coded, what need is there to actively push the Word into everything? It’s already there, just extremely subtle to human minds.
Too many times this can be used as an excuse to not write God in. Sure, things are already signed by God, but do people see that? No, not unless their eyes have already been opened. As Christians, we should be trying to show God to our best ability, and to our best ability doesn’t mean just writing about the intricacies of a bird feather, but about the marvellous plan for the world that God has made.
Basically, Jesus is center stage. But our writing is a poor way to communicate him directly. Any human activity other than focused praise/prayer better reflects the world-revealed philosophy of God (in nature) because our creativity is part of that nature. Nature cannot recite John 3:16. That was not in its ability nor its purpose. Its purpose is to imply the cause of itself without giving the answer away completely.
Nature can’t recite it, but we can, so why don’t we? The tools are laid before us! We must use them all to make the perfect masterpiece, or we can decide to use only a couple and create something, and while that something may not be terrible, it will not be as great as if we had used all the tools.
And…from there on I kinda lost you. I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make.
"You need French Toast."
#AnduthForever (hopefully 💕)I kind of agree… with both of you 😅
Ummmm I think Aragorn was not meant to be a Christ figure, but JRRT used some traits that happen to overlap.
When we meet Aragorn, he hides in the shadows, always watchful,
but rather quiet and mysterious, preferring to not make himself known. We’d
almost think him a little timid if we didn’t see he could be a brave and
rational fighter when need presses.Rae, this is very much like Christ. Jesus remained in the same small area of preaching, and his preaching was debatably not as widely accepted as when his disciples began the Great Commission. And in context, he maybe wasn’t timid, but he obviously wasn’t a fighter. The Jews wanted a king, and what they got was a lowly Nazarene carpenter.
Also I can only hypothesize, but Moses was called “the most timid man on the earth.” And he was representative of Christ. So the idea of a introvert Jesus is not out the window. 😅
Anyway. Aragorn is a good leader whether or not he is an allegory.
“Everything is a mountain”
@whalekeeper @rae yeah I wasn’t saying Aragorn and Smalls were SPECIFICALLY designed to be Jesus archetypes, but the sheer fact that they are the good kings that win out over evil and take their thrones in the end means the writers were at least influenced by their worldview.
I mean, non-Christian authors do kinda the same thing sometimes, but still.
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
I can say, with a 100% certainty that Aragorn was NOT meant as an sorta Jesus figure, or to represent anything in Christ.
Really? Does a character have to be perfect to be a Christ figure?
Any noun can become a verb if you don't care enough.
Thank you for posing the other side, Rae 😌
But the purpose of a Christian is to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel”, to be a light in darkness, and writing is a way we can do that! It is a command from Jesus Himself to preach the Gospel, so shouldn’t we be using the talents and means God has given us to obey that command? Shouldn’t writing’s purpose, for a Christian, be the same purpose as they have themselves?
Our talents are part of the natural world, and can glorify God without directly stating him.
I should have defined what I mean by “nature.” There are two ways God reveals himself – Biblical revelation, and nature. Nature is the world around us.
You can write a story about Biblical revelation if you want, but we humans are finicky creatures. When we see an allegory done wrong, or too obvious, or too limited in its perspective, we don’t like it. We are forced to stop enjoying the story itself, because – is this really about dragons and knights? No, we know it’s about the author’s worldview. And that author is unable to communicate their view better than the Bible can.
Can allegory work? I think it can, but not very often.
Narnia is a classic because it was the first of its kind. Ever since, teens have been imitating him and Andrew Peterson… And I don’t think it’s a good idea to do that XD Allegory is such an easily screwed genre, and I wholeheartedly believe it’s the worst for young writers.
So how else do stories glorify the Creator?
Nature is the world around us. Human nature is part of that. The complexities of God’s handiwork are great things to talk about, because they still reflect God, and stories are perfect for that! Character arcs are about human nature! Writing is part of the idea realm, which confirms the existence of things beyond physical sight.
Too many times this can be used as an excuse to not write God in.
You’re assuming we should explicitly put God in a story. I’m attacking that assertion.
As Christians, we should be trying to show God to our best ability, and to our best ability doesn’t mean just writing about the intricacies of a bird feather, but about the marvellous plan for the world that God has made.
The intricacies of a bird feather imply the marvelous plan. There is no need to point out the plan. A reader can use their brains.
Like I’ve said before, we don’t have to do that with our creations to justify them on a Christian level. I don’t have to explicitly write the name “Jesus” with ketchup on my homemade pizza 🧐 The existence of pizza molecules prove God. The ideas in a book prove the idea realm, which in turn proves God.
You can also lead a reader to recognize their moral compass, the existence of right and wrong, gain emotional intelligence, even to disengage from a faulty philosophy. These are worthwhile things.
Nature can’t recite it, but we can, so why don’t we?
That would be reciting John 3:16, which is not creative writing 😂 Creative writing is part of human nature, which is part of the revelation of Nature itself. We are perfectly able to tell stories which aid the proof of a created world.
I also firmly despise the notion “God-focused stories are better than ‘normal’ stories.”
I don’t include a God figure in my story. Nor is my story about the Gospel.
Look me in my digital eyes, Rae, and tell me my story is worth less to God than yours.
…
That’s all I have, I think I’m done 😅 You can reply or mess with these ideas, do whatever you want with them. Anyone can.
“Everything is a mountain”
Why do you think Aragorn wasn’t intended as a Christ figure? I don’t mean that JRRT meant Aragorn specifically to represent Christ or anything, but I think in some ways he was definitely intended to be a Christ figure.
(and I hope y’all don’t mind me jumping in here :p)
Any noun can become a verb if you don't care enough.
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