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@Jess Does there necessarily have to be a hero for there to be an antihero, or can an antihero work without a hero to bounce off of?
@emma-flournoy, well I replied but it’s not showing it so that’s weird.
@emma-flournoy An antihero does not need a hero complement.
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@Adry_Grace Yeah, that is weird. It happened to me a few days ago on the Les Mis thread, but I was able to post it later. I got the notification by e-mail—here’s what you said:
@emma-flournoy That’s a good thought.
I do not think that a hero is NECESSARY to an antihero. I think an antihero can function just as well as a character without a hero. Antiheroes have the ability to be very deep, complex, meaningful characters all by themselves. That’s why I love them.
But in Christian writing, I think this is also something we should tread carefully. Because, as fun as it is to work with antiheroes, at heart there is still something wrong (evil) with their character, whether it be their actions or intentions or whatever your antiheroes personal flaw is. I think that when an antihero stands all by himself, especially as a main character, it’s really easy to paint his flaw as okay or heroic which then (a) completely misses the point of the antihero (for me anyway) and (b) blurs even further the line between good and evil. An antihero may be where those meet, but there should still be a distinction, I think.
Sooooooo YES. Totally. Antiheroes are strong, independent characters who don’t need no hero. But it’s a tricky line to balance on.
@Daeus @Adry_Grace Thanks. So then, the definition ‘anti-hero’ does not mean someone who is anti hero—against the hero in the story—but it means, anti hero—not like a hero in character. Right?
I agree, Adry Grace—the flaws they have should be shown as such. As with any character, really. 😉Daeus this probably has a very obvious answer, but is Edmond Dantes an example of an antihero in a story without a hero? He’s not considered a hero, but an antihero? (I’d sure call him an antihero. 😛 )
@emma-flournoy Yes, I suppose he would be.
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I procrastinate. You all know that. It’s been literally a month. But I managed to finish my article on Antiheroes. It doesn’t actually talk about how to write them, but it does delve into the history, morality, psychology, and ethics of the antihero character type (I believe the blog post will answer most of Jess’s inital questions). And I’m gonna tag everyone who participated in this thread, ’cause I want to know what you think of the article. Am I wrong in some areas? Did I get some qualities right?
@jess @winter-rose @northerner @adry_grace @rachelle @emma-flournoy @daeusI blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@Mark-Kamibaya Excellent article. I especially found the definitions of the two antiheroes helpful. I’m going to have to go think about this some more. The one critique I have at the moment is that your statement about how in the past antiheroes were found repulsive seemed unsubstantiated.
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@Mark-Kamibaya I agree, excellent article. I couldn’t really tell you whether I found aspects right or wrong, because I don’t know a whole lot about the antihero. Didn’t, at least. 😉 But it was a very interesting read, and well written. I haven’t seen any of the characters you mentioned for reference except Luke Skywalker—and that was for hero—…now I’ve been trying to think of characters I know of who’d be considered antiheroes…
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@mark-kamibaya I love your article! I found your categorization of the different anti-heros quite helpful. Your explanation of how readers will rationalize your character’s actions due to their attachment is accurate and something writers need to be aware of.
These are just some thoughts your article made me think:
As I see it, Anti-hero’s are villains who accidently do good things. I don’t see them as heroic at all because they didn’t want to do good. They weren’t willing to sacrifice themselves or their own desires for the good of others. They’re selfish all the way through, and unless they change during the story, that’s who they will always be. If a Christian does write an true anti-hero, he or she must show the consequences of the anti-hero’s wickedness and selfishness, even if he did a little bit of good. Sure, maybe the anti-hero killed a murderer in his quest for revenge; the murderer will no longer kill anyone else. That’s good. But the anti-hero did it for completely selfish reasons. Show how unsatisfied and unfulfilled your anti-hero is after his revenge is complete. Show his emptiness. Show the consequences. Show that being an true anti-hero isn’t a good thing.@Mark-Kamibaya Whoops, I thought I replied to this already. You article was really well written. Now I have to actually write an anti-hero. 🙂
Well, it took me a while to find my way back here but…
This was deep. I liked your distinction between a general antihero and a true antihero. It’s something I hadn’t before thought of and now that I think about agree with. Distinction is necessary. I think that’s where my personal definition fell short, that and not clarifying that antiheroes actions are not to be praised. Your definition, however, was as thorough as they come. *applauds*
Wonderful blog post, by the way.
Well, it’s been about a week. And I don’t think anyone else will read the article so . . .
@daeus Thanks, man. How antiheroes were treated in the past is probably a little more speculative than most of my findings (I’m not that old, right). I just found that the popular figures in Greco-Roman mythology were classical heroes (Hercules, Achilles, Theseus, Perseus). Whereas Odysseus, probably the first antihero, was shunned and forgotten until Western influence brought him back with honor and praise. But, yeah,the whole idea of repulsive classical antiheroes was based on this one fact.
@emma-flournoy Are you sure you haven’t at least heard of any of the characters? Even the general antiheroes? I mentioned Jessica Jones, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, Quasimodo (from the Hunchback of Notre Dame, great book btw), Severus Snape (Harry Potter), and Haymitch Abernathy (Hunger Games) as examples of general antiheroes. For the true antihero, I can honestly say that I also don’t know much about the ones I mentioned. I just chose well-known characters. Like Dexter Morgan, The Punisher, and Dirty Harry. I wouldn’t suggest researching those characters. I just know they’re well-known in pop culture. So if anyone knows a true antihero that is well-known then please tell me. Biblically, I’d say Balaam, but that’s just me.@gabrielle Glad the article helped and made you think. I kind of have this idea that articles should never be an end in themselves, but that they should make the readers think more deeply about the subject matter, above and beyond what was written in the article.
I didn’t put this in the article because I’m not totally convinced that my view is the right one. But I’ll spill it onto this forum anyway. Antiheroes are good in either motive, method, or end result. Anything else can be bad. The only difference between antiheroes and villains are that the author portrays one as good. There isn’t that much difference after that. Now here’s something that I probably should’ve added to the article in some way: the antiheroic story arc can only end in three ways redemption, punishment, or unheroic success. I don’t believe that the true antiheroic story arc has to end in punishment. It can also end in redemption (for aren’t we antiheroes that have been redeemed?). Unheroic success can only work in two instances. 1) if the book is in a series in which the true antihero eventually changes. 2) if it’s a general antihero and not a true antihero. What do you think about this?
@jess Yes! Write that antihero!
@adry_grace That was definitely a compliment. Thank you. The two categories are, at least from what I’ve researched, unique to me. Like nobody else has seen those two distinctions. Most distinctions categorize based on motive or backstory, but I think my two definitions delve deeper into the character. But my basis is just observations and research. Nothing from experience.I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@winter-rose I tagged you above as @gabrielle. Stupid me.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
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