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@kate-flournoy Yes, I agree that the smallest details matter…that’s the thing about writing. Everything matters.
☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@kate-flournoy What, the fantasy book? Well, you’d better. Otherwise I might whack you with my stick.
Speaking of taking advantage of you, mind taking a look at the guy and seeing if there’s any way I could improve him (aka abuse him more). So here’s his outline.
One thing you need to know is that I’m writing a loose allegory somewhat in the vein of Tolkien. Taking advantage of my flexibility there, I essentially decided to save the trouble and roll Adam and the devil into one. So that’s the guy we’re talking about. He’s the top evil lord of the world and the main antagonist. So going back to the original mythology, he was appointed the chief of the race of men during the time of the creation, physically beautiful beyond all else in creation and likewise in demeanor too, filled only with a desire to create and with a fascination for what was beautiful. Now the fall happens quickly. The way it works is that Creator figure instructs the creautes to learn from him, being instructed in the “Theme” by which he creates all things and not to create of their own until he has finished and taught them. My villain of course (Poor guy has yet to get a name!) disobeys, to his terror creating all sorts of evil, being thereby filled with horror and fear, but the fear bringing about the terrible attraction of evil so that he seeks to corrupt his fellows, succeding. Now one of the consequences of his own creation is that he turns his own hands into beastly things, totally ugly, and with claws. These he is always trying to hide, except when he has no other choice. The most important thing about this backstory though is that he is cursed with an everlasting irreversible curse that he must live forever to experience the world he made of ever conflicting good and evil. As far as I see it, this strikes to his very core since the good and beautiful is essentially what sustains his soul. Now fast forward to the time period where my story takes place. He’s essentially the same, but now lord of all the evil creatures which he created, whom he loathes. His pastime is mainly art, always trying to create something beautiful, always starting to, but then inevitably straying into some corrupted image, leading him to anguish and depression and thence to despair then total wrathful destruction of whatever he created, it’s corruption being too much for him to endure. As I said though, that’s his pastime. His main goal is the total destruction of all sentient creatures (and as much of the rest of the world too). The reason is actually very personal. It is because the life that he created on earth is a mixture of good and bad that he cannot endure, so he thinks that the only hope he has of eternal peace is to end all in death. Come to think of it, though he can’t kill himself, he might be able to try to drive himself into complete evil, thinking thereby to escape his torment. I never thought about that before, but I think I have a way to fit that in.
Aaaaaaaanyways, that’s what I’ve got so far. I feel like it’s a good start, but there’s not a whole lot of details for him. I’m especially wondering how he will interact with others including his subordinates, whom he loathes, and my protagonist(s) who will eventually meet him in their goal to stop him.
hmm, i wonder how many grammer mistakes I made in this long post. Oh well.
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No threats required, sir. XD
And this guy sounds fascinating.
To answer your question about subordinates… okay, well first of all you need to understand that INFPs are not natural leaders. They have the vision to spark a movement, but lack the stamina to realize it on their own. Only if their cause is spotless and completely in line with their inner vision could they pull through and actually lead the thing. They have to believe deeply in what they’re accomplishing to lead well. So, being stuck leading a cause they absolutely loathe would be pure torture. That on top of being stuck with all their own mistakes and blackness and hideousness around them would almost certainly drive them to depression, very probably suicide.
Another thing about INFPs is though their depression is no less intense when bottled inside, it’s more bearable if it only affects them and doesn’t touch the harmony or beauty of the world. If an INFP ruins the world and knows it and is forced to not only live with it but continue the corruption and lead it on, I’m pretty sure there’s very little that could actually keep them from suicide. So this guy can’t be able to die, or you’ll certainly have a dead villain on your hands before that’s quite convenient. 😛 He’s probably immortal, isn’t he? Double torture.
Okay, so interacting with his subordinates. INFPs are very laid-back and easy-going as a rule. They’re not given to micro-managing or manipulation. So long as a job gets done with the correct end-result, they’re not picky about the details. Having to be the head-villain and bother about the details would be extremely annoying and a tremendous drain on an INFP’s mental energy.
Specifically for messed up INFPs, they won’t be able to stand the sight of their own face in the mirror, much less stand to let others look at them and see them in all their awful brokenness. If an INFP can’t fix a situation, their next escape route is to hide from it. Think of Ren. Why should a perfectly sound, strong young man without a single disfigurement go all cloaked in black with a bulky, uncomfortable voice-changer mask? Unless he can’t bear to let people see him. See, when people see you, there’s always the chance they’ll be able to see through you, and that is a horrifying thought to the INFP, ‘specially those who have something to hide.
So they hide the fact that they’re a person. They may even try to hide that from themselves— to think of themselves and have others think of them as emotionless machines. Because if people don’t think you have a soul, then they won’t ask about it, and you’ll be spared hurting them with a cold refusal or painfully submitting to their probing.
And that’s another thing about INFPs, even the messed up ones. They’re empaths. That means they feel what others feel. They don’t just observe that you are sad and pity you— they literally feel your sorrow. They are so finely in tune with the world that they can sense the slightest tremor or shift in her ‘subtextual’ fabric. If they hurt you, you can just bet they know it and feel it perhaps more keenly than you yourself. Even the messed up ones cannot escape their empathy. It’s both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because you feel everything. A curse for the same reason.
(All NF types are empaths, by the way).
So in interacting with his subordinates, I would say this guy tries to have as little contact with them as possible. For one, he can’t bear to see them. Two, he can’t bear to risk them seeing him. He probably wears a mask.
Say one of the subordinates made him angry. An INFP at war with himself is always angry at himself, so when someone else makes him angry… yikes. Remember how quickly Ren’s temper flares to white-heat. But since the INFP is an empath, he’s very unlikely to vent his frustration on the person who made him angry. Besides, to connect emotionally at all (even in anger) to any person whatsoever establishes an emotional thread between that person and yourself, which is what the broken INFP will do anything to avoid. Enter convenient space-ship. 😛 Ren vented his frustration on his ship rather than those who had ‘failed’ him for this reason.Another curious detail about INFPs is that it’s in their blood to sacrifice themselves for others. The INFP is the type most likely to make a sacrifice of themselves to grant someone else life.
For a slightly less extreme example, whenever I and my family go to a really crowded place where anyone’s liable to get lost, I always feel more comfortable if I’m at the back of the line because then if anyone gets lost it’ll be me and not one of my siblings. I don’t do it on purpose. It’s not a conscious thing. It’s just an instinct.
So the INFP, villain or not, will take the difficult, dangerous tasks on their own shoulders out of preference, not simply duty. They prefer to work alone, so if their task fails they are the only ones in danger. They handle stressful situations of all kinds with an easier heart if they face them alone and no one else will be caught up in the aftermath of their decision.And… wow this is a long post. 😛 If you have any more questions ask away and I’ll answer them as best I can, but I’d better end this post before it begins to rival the dictionary. XD
Oh, and about the protagonists, he’ll probably recognize the beauty of truth in them that he once had and rejected, and both despise and adore them. This will make it more difficult for him to destroy them— these people have a chance to turn the world around and reverse everything he has made hideous, and he would give his very life’s blood for that. (Even in this their tendency to sacrifice themselves shines through. To die for the final realization of their most cherished dream is joy, no matter the cost to themselves.) The selfish human part of him that wants to live (which is probably more or less squashed at this point anyway) will insist he kill them swiftly without giving himself time to think over it, and these two opposing voices will war inside him. Which one wins depends on just how corrupted he is, or how much of the spark of truth he has left in him still.
Um, wow.
Um, wow.
So, miss Webster, just one more question. For the protagonists, do you think he might view them almost as inseparable from his own soul? Might he look to them for the healing of his own wounds?🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
@Daeus no. INFPs see things very clearly and despise hiding from the truth of reality. (One of their paradoxes.) He would know that for the world to heal, he would have to perish. And he would be okay with that.
@kate-flournoy Ok, I guess that makes sense. Though on a side note, even by dying he could not stop what he had started, though that doesn’t really matter since he is immortal.
So he’s not going to look to the protagonists in that way, but is he going to be totally self-sustaining in his convictions of what he must do, or is he going to be emotionally dependent in any way? Does he want others to agree with him that all must end in death, or does he not care what they think?
And since you brought up the idea of all NFs being empaths, I have a totally separate question. Being an NF, this has really confused me. I can certainly tell how people are feeling, but the sense of actually sharing in their emotion seems on and off. Most of the time it is there sometimes it is very acute, but every once and a while, it doesn’t seem to be there at all and I feel like I’m a totally heartless person.
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@Daeus drawing from my own experience, INFPs are never really emotionally dependent on anyone but themselves. And that’s my experience as a completely healthy, ‘normal’ INFP— I can’t even begin to describe how independent they would be if they were hiding something aside from just normal INFP ‘hidey-ness’. If an INFP, good or bad, has a conviction and is sure of it, they don’t need anyone elses’ go-ahead or support. The conviction and the knowledge that they are right is enough.
About NF types… there are stronger empaths within the empath group, and the INFP is probably the strongest. In fact, I think it’s only the INFP, maybe the INFJ, who can feel everything. You guys have no idea what you’re missing, and at the same time… you have no idea what you’re missing! 😛
Joking aside, the extroverts aren’t as intense in this as the introverts. Extroverts are seldom, if ever, as intense as introverts in anything. And any empath’s reaction to someone elses’ emotion is influenced a lot by who it is— if it’s their sibling, they feel it with extreme clarity. If it’s a total stranger, not so much. They still feel it, but they may not feel it clearly, or they may brush it off, and that’s totally okay. Empath’s aren’t bound to feeling everything— some of us can’t help it, but it’s not the end of the world if we don’t respond with acute empathy to everything. In fact, empaths are in a decided minority, so if we don’t feel for once, we’re not violating what people are created to do or anything. 😀 😉 Most people only observe. Empathy can be a very useful tool, but it’s okay to put away tools every once in a while. Sometimes I think a little less emotion is good— it gives us a chance to step back and evaluate things from a clear perspective.What? Not emotionally dependent? I can hardly even comprehend that 😛 This is going to be a complete paradigm shift for me, but I guess stretching is always recommended.
Come to think of it, I might actually have some clue why I might be heartless sometimes. I’ve never thought about this before, but I am an essentially forward-looking person, so having to feel for something that is bogging another person down (which is when I mainly feel heartless) really goes against my grain, because getting bogged down is the last thing on earth I want (getting bogged down makes me depressed).
Since you answered that one, see if you can tell me why I’m both extremely passionate and careless in the most random combinations.
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Yessss… *rubs handses* More questions, precious. In case you can’t tell, this is all quite fascinating to me.
*glares* Us.
*nervous laugh* We meant us, precious.That’s actually a very good point about you being forward-looking, and is more specific to your ‘problem’ than my little sermon on the general differences in the empath group. 😛 So— okay, diving into another long, complicated analysis here. Each of the sixteen different types is defined by a different core value, if you will. ENFJ is alternately called the protagonist and the mentor— both very forward-looking roles. So you might say the ENFJ is defined by the desire for progress. The INFP, by contrast, is alternately called the dreamer and the healer, so you might say they’re defined by the desire for harmony. They are both empaths, but as with all their functions and quirks their empathy works constantly to the one core goal that defines them. ENFJs are determined to see that the world goes round and that people grow and mature and better themselves and everything around them. INFPs are determined to eliminate the stress and frustration that comes with discord, to see that people understand each other and themselves and enable them to rise above strife and confusion and unite in search of higher things. (Talk about impossible dreams 😛 ).
Therefore, as ENFJs are constantly seeking progress, when progress is impeded they tend to get confused and frustrated because they can’t work as functionally as they usually can. They usually pour themselves into growth. When growth isn’t happening for one reason or another, they have no immediate goal and can lose focus and get depressed. Then they get depressed at their own depression because depression impedes progress, and become even more depressed that they’re depressed at their own depression that’s impeding progress. 😛 It’s a vicious circle. They may not realize that it’s progress they crave— simply that they’re depressed and don’t really know why, which is depressing because if you don’t know why something’s happening there’s no way to progress out of it. 😀 Their motto, I guess you could say, is ‘rolling stones gather no moss’.
If I could say one thing to all the ENFJs out there (listen up @Emma-Flournoy) it’s that you need to realize that the maintenance of harmony (inner and outer) is essential to the continuance of progress. Getting upset and depressed at yourself serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters and impede the progress that is your driving force.
ENFJs also tend to judge themselves based on how much they accomplish, and while there’s nothing wrong with accomplishment I would say slow down. Appreciate the fact that you’re alive. Appreciate the little simple things around you that may not accomplish an immediate goal, but help shape the person you are. You are not defined in God’s eyes by everything you do, but by who you are. Maybe in man’s eyes, but who cares about them?So in a nutshell, if something doesn’t make something grow, ENFJs couldn’t care less about it. If they see no use for it, why bother with it? It’s just impeding progress. (This is also what makes them frustrated with themselves when they aren’t growing or succeeding how they think they should.)
As for the level-headed and crazy… *grins* that’s merely a result of your oddly mixed functions. XNFJs have all the crazy, dreamy intensity of NFs everywhere, but with a J tacked on to the end they’re more responsible and organized and mature about being crazy. 😀
@Bluejay aren’t you an ENFJ? You may want to see this.@kate-flournoy The more I find out that you know, the more I think I’d like to see you run for president. 😉
Since you’re so intrigued with all of this, I’ll level a couple of questions your direction. What about a person who scores both ENTJ and ENTP but normally feels very much like an introvert? They’ve just barely scored extrovert status, but in reality are quite certain they’re an introvert. What would cause the pendulum to sway between those two like that? And if you could say one thing to someone like that, what would it be? (our hypothetical person shall remain nameless… 😉 )
"Courage is action in spite of fear."
@Corissa-Maiden-of-Praise hehehee… I’m actually not all that wise. This just happens to be one of my pet… things. 😉
And I just happen to have a lot of pet things. 😛Hm, ENTJ/ENTP who believes they’re an introvert… hm. This is trickier. For one, I’m not as knowledgeable on either of those two types because those I have studied are the ones I have in my family and I don’t have any of those, but lemme give it a shot.
I guess the question I have to ask before I can really answer this is, what makes this… hem… anonymous person so sure they’re an introvert? Is it a feeling of great inner intensity and confidence and indwelling awareness of herself, versus an outward focus? Or is it a tendency to avoid social gatherings like the plague, a feeling of anxiety meeting new people, and a tendency to gravitate to the corner of a room in a large group? Is it fear of people, or inward intensity? Because my answer will vary depending.@kate-flournoy I suppose it’s her extreme dislike of talking about herself at all. There are one or two subjects in her life that she is willing to talk about for some time, but when those are exhausted she feels awkward discussing anything else personal. She prefers to simply try and keep the other person talking as much as possible, and if she fails she feels awkward as the silence prevails while she grasps for another question to ask. She hates missing any social functions, but when at one generally speaks only if spoken to, and prefers to stay busy helping or caring for young children, since it’s never hard to keep them talking. She’s rather a complex character, you see. 😛
"Courage is action in spite of fear."
@Corissa-Maiden-of-Praise actually she doesn’t sound like an introvert at all. She sounds like an ENTP (debater) and ENTJ (commander) cross. 😛
See, the thing with introverts is that they are literally terrified of people. Most of us are fascinated by people at the same time, but the thought of walking up to a complete stranger, no matter how fascinating, is enough to terrify us out of our wits. We stand trembling in the corner and try and try and try to nerve ourselves up to do it, and by the time we finally make up our minds to brave the wild tides of social interaction the chance has passed.
Think of it this way— for an introvert, the world is a part of them. They are focused inward. For an extrovert, they are a part of the world. They are focused outward. That’s just their two different perspectives.
(I’ll tell you a secret though. Both INFPs and INFJs are very good at disguising themselves as extroverts. Most people who really know me would be shocked to discover that I’m not only not and ENFP, but 98% an INFP. So we can be tricksy ones to spot, especially if we’re mature enough to realize that social interaction is necessary to human survival. XD )So this girl does not sound at all like an introvert. The thing with ENTPs and ENTJs both is that they always feel like they have to be doing something productive. (Somewhat like the ENFJ). The ENTP’s driving force is growth through discussion and discovery, and the ENTJ’s is success. So they naturally gravitate to areas where there is more to discover and where there is greater potential that their drive for success will be realized. And often that is among children. That’s not surprising at all.
Hm… if I could say one thing to either of these types, it would probably be make sure you realize that there are other people around you— in your quest for discovery and success, be careful you don’t trample the more sensitive types underfoot. You will always be seeking a debate or a project or some activity that will result in the accomplishment of your ultimate goal, (which is often ‘help everyone else become un-stupid’ 😛 ) and in seeking that you may forget that not everyone shares your enthusiasm. People have their own lives to live, and may resent you trying to organize them into your plans, or make plans for them. Especially with ENTJ commanders, realize that if someone wants to be stupid, they have that right. 😛 Annoying as it is, you can’t micromanage everything just so to fit your ideal of how it should be. Your ideal may be good and right and correct, but that doesn’t give you the right to trample others underfoot in the realization.Well, you asked! 😀
Also @Daeus, I thought of something else. With ENFJ and INFP writers, the ENFJs are usually a lot quicker and more efficient, because progress satisfies them most. INFPs take longer and may get bogged down more easily, because harmony satisfies them most, and when they sense something ‘off’ in their work they positively CANNOT move on until they figure it out and smooth out all the wrinkles. You’ve probably noticed I’m a lot slower than you when it comes to accomplishment. While there could be any number of reasons for that, I think this is the primary one. Just goes to show that each type has their own ‘must’ and sometimes they clash directly with the ‘musts’ of the other types. So INFPs need to remember that they won’t ever get anything done if they just correct and correct and correct (I’ve had to promise myself that I would NOT go back and correct major things in the middle of a draft, but wait for the next round of corrections 😛 ) and ENFJs need to remember that there are different kinds of progress than can be measured in word-counts or page numbers. Everything that ever happens to anybody is progress of some sort, because it changes them and challenges them and makes them think, which makes them wiser and prepares them better to handle tougher situations.
So yes. I just thought that was pretty cool.
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