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Heyo!! So as the title suggest I want to discuss book pacing!!
Let me first begin by saying, I absolutely LOVE reading and buying craft books on writing. (I know, I know, reading doesn’t make you a writer, writing does, but I still love them XD)
that being said, I do love learning about all sorts of writing stuff.
In learning I’ve learned about pacing and outlining, the Hero’s journey, different version of it such as save the cat method, three act structure, etc.
And I also know you can do what you want and throw things to the wind when need be, but sometimes that’s easier said than done.
The reason I started this topic, though, is because I’ve known while thinking and working on this second book that the inciting incident-the hero’s call into the unknown, the thing that takes them from their normal world, happens quite a bit later in the book.
That being said, the rest of the pacing runs right because the book is still long (very very long if it’s how I’m keeping it currently) and so the pacing is the same in keeping with everything else, it’s just the fact that the “setup” is very long lol. AKA Act I is a lot longer then usual lol.
so….
I’m just wondering what everyone thinks about this…
How much do y’all think pacing is important? Also…do you think my inciting incident is my actual inciting incident??
Because I’m wondering…
If my characters have different inciting incidents….at different times…
Confusing right? Welcome to having multiple protags…XD
Currently my inviting incident is Zolten’s murder…but maybe that’s just Lyn and Nyx’s inciting incident?
Is Ara and November’s Inciting Incident something else??
I’m kinda wondering this…
What do y’all think?
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebHey Godly!!
Oh my goodness, pacing is SO HARD XDXD
The first think I thought to do was look up the definition of Inciting Incident. As far as I can see, an inciting incident is an event, no matter how big or small, that disrupts the hero’s status quo. It starts the conflict, but it can be either negative or positive, and it might not even be completely noticeable to the reader.
For example, in Pride and Prejudice, it has been argued that the Inciting Incident is at the first party, when Elizabeth eavesdrops on Darcy and Bingley’s conversation, and hears Darcy say that she isn’t very attractive. She shrugs it off, and it doesn’t seem to affect anyone, but in fact, it plants a passive seed in her mind, and because of it, the “Predudice” part of the title is fulfilled.
So anything that changes your character’s physical or emotional status quo (or kicks off a change) could be an Inciting Incident.
…I don’t know if Arabella and November end up in Cirque before Zolten dies. But if they do, their arrival might be the Inciting Incident. If Cirque doesn’t have much interaction with the outside world, and these two strangers inspire Jocelyn to think bigger, that sounds like a change of status quo to me! Specifically for Jocelyn. And if she starts acting strangely from thinking about all these new and exciting things, her change in mood might be an Inciting Incident for Nyx.
Or pretty much anything that signals unrest in the tent would fit the bill. If someone acts frustrated over how Cirque works, and Lyn had never thought that way before. Or Nyx (he seems like the detective type XD) notices something suspicious.
So if you feel like your Inciting Incident is too far into the story, you can extend the emotional implications of the death through forshadowing, or focus on the natural conflict of Cirque somehow.
Of course, maybe Zolten’s death had no forshadowing and happened as a surprise, and Ara and November had not shown up yet. …Then it’s a clear Inciting Incident to me XD I’m just making suggestions if you wanted to shift to a different Incident, something closer to the beginning of the book.
As for if Zolten’s death being Ara and November’s Inciting Incident…
Well, I guess it depends on how significant his death would be to their story. The thing is, everyone has their own status quo. And they’re not all the same. What is influential to a person’s life, might be just a short newspaper article to someone else. Is this event going to important to them for a specific reason, other than how it might be for a normal onlooker?
Just random food for thought. 😛
What’s the blurb for this book? (Might help me get a better idea)
#ProtectAdolinKholin
@whalekeeper ooh love those points!! I don’t have a blurb currently (I probably have old blurbs stored away on my computer, but the story has changed so much they probably aren’t quite as relevant? Though most of it remains the same.)
Essentially this is what happens-
This takes place a few weeks (or a month or so) after the events of the first book. Ara and November, (spoiler alert) at the end of that first book, were removed from their home (you could say by magic, but whatever lol) and are not allowed to return until the evil Ara was “sealing away” from A’Grend is destroyed.
Ara knew she was making this sacrifice when she did it, (and the ability to do so shows her growth in that first book.) November went with her, hitching a ride at the last second lol.
Since then….things haven’t gone well for them, so they already aren’t in their “status quo.”
As of rn, their status quo is running from place to place searching for any semblance of “Normal” or what to do next, with no home, no family and no idea what to do, or where to go.
Theyve never been outside of A’Grend before (at least November doesn’t remember this) so their status quo isn’t very normal rn.
The book (at this point in time) opens with them having stowed away on a ship, just trying to escape their last place, where they ran into trouble. But now they’re in trouble again, as stowaways.
This ship is headed for Cirque, but they don’t even know where that is, etc.
So honestly? I’m not entirely sure what Ara and November’s inciting incident is.
I know for sure that Lyn and Nyx’s is either
1. The idea that Cirque may not be all its cracked up to be (pre-murder)
2. Zolten’s murder, which continues the previous thought as well.
But Ara and November? I dunno! Is it escaping the ship and arriving to Cirque? Meeting Jocelyn and Nyx? Finally finding a “friend” in this upside down world? Or maybe being threatened by Zolten?
I can’t quite pinpoint it…
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebOki-doki cool! Thank you ❤
So you’ve got Lyn and Nyx in order, but Ara and November need a push…
I think it would have to be something (or TWO somethings) that kick off their character development for that book.
So what ghosts are going to challenge them in this particular book? What are they each struggling with?
Then we can more easily brainstorm incidents, yeah? Since I’m not completely immersed in your world like you are, I have an out-of-the-box mindset, by default XD
#ProtectAdolinKholin
@whalekeeper true, true (love having a brainstorm partner lol)
So…in this book, Ara is still struggling with past mistakes/decisions. She’s grown a lot since the first book (this is a series so there is growth in each book, wether it be good or bad growth) but nothing is fully gone yet. Now, though, she’s struggling mostly with the fact that she’s separated from her home and her family for…well…she doesn’t know how long. She’s in this unknown world, unknown place, and she struggles with fear. A fear of the unknown is a big deal for her, and she also second guesses her decisions. So while she knows she did the right thing, in saving her kingdom, she just wonders if there wasn’t another way.
She also can’t help but feel as though she’s dragged November along for the ride (even though he chose to come and had no real reason to stay in A’Grend) some of this is compounded though she because she blames herself majorly for an injury he received (in her place) in book 1.
Ara’s on the journey to becoming a leader, though she doesn’t really know it yet, and at this point…she’s not ready at all. In the first book she made decisions because her kingdom depended on it, her family…everything she knew and loved.
But Lyn and November are going to need someone to help them make decisions, and Ara isn’t at that place yet. That’s her growing point, so that by the time she makes it to the third book she’s a bit more confident in her decision making, though she still refuses to call herself a leader, and is able to help Grimm, learn from his own leadership styles, and finally accept the role of a Leader.
Idk if that made sense buuut yea XD that was kinda long…
So…November…
November has a…ah…complicated?? Character/series arc.
Complicated in that it’s negative but positive in the end…
November doesn’t really get “better.”
He gets increasingly “worse.” Until in the end it turns into a positive arc (same with Corvina, his sister.)
But sprinkled within are points and moments where everything could change, and glimmers of the truth he needs to accept is right there (same with Corvina) it just…doesn’t happen.
Not that the books end “negatively” in his POV Everytime, they just don’t end the way they should.
For instance- in this book, November is struggling because, in leaving A’Grend, he never really got any closure from the situations that took place prior to the “Sealing away.”
Now he couldn’t really help this, as it was a split second decision to go with Ara, and it was the right decision in the end, but it still has consequences…
He was unable to deal with the pain of discovering his father was a traitor/never really loved him, he was injured during a battle with Corvina and it scarred him for life (physically and mentally due to Corvina’s powers and other stuff I’m not gonna get into), he’s ALSO dealing with the fact of being separated from the only home he remembers, unable to return…
Plus…Ara isn’t doing well, and that doesn’t help his mood in anyway, because…well…he loves her, so ya know.
November’s never had good self esteem, and it basically continues to plummet as the series goes on, despite his friends’ words and compliments.
His truth is that he matters-he is loved beyond all reason, by God, and by those who really care for him. That he is worth something and NOT a mistake.
But his lie/ghost basically wins over that truth, due to things in his past, the way he’s been treated, his own mindset, etc.
Idk if this helps at all but basically these are their struggles…
November’s kinda remains the same throughout the series, but changes REASON depending on the book (for instance in this one he’s dealing with a ton of loss (home, father, etc) and the unknown, and, like Ara, he’s also blaming himself for what happened back in A’Grend.
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebSo, I know I’m butting in here, but I have a quick question.
When Ara and November left A’Grend, wouldn’t of Ara’s parents have sent, like, an adult to guard and them and stuff? Or did God (idk what He’s called in your universe) decree that they were to go alone? Or did they leave without telling anyone?
Idk it was just kind of bugging me 😉
A donation has been made in your name to the Human Fund: Money for People.
@highscribeofaetherium good question!
So essentially what happens is this (and I haven’t figured out ALL of the details)- Eder (type and shadows of Satan) is headed to A’Grend, to destroy it. Ara, sorta begrudgingly, tries to find out how to stop him, being led by her dreams/visions and a journal by her late grandmother.
She discovers her grandmother left her a way to stop him, because her grandmother was also gifted by God with these dreams/visions of the future (think almost like the gift of prophecy but not really lol)
So her grandmother knew this day would come, and that Ara would be the only one to stop Eder (chosen one situation, basically.) But also November is needed as well, and is very special.
Her grandmother didn’t see everything, but saw a glimpse of the future to come, and that Eder would be destroyed, but Ara and November would be needed in order for it to happen.
Ara discovers the way to keep her kingdom safe is by Sealing it away from harm essentially, using something she finds hidden in the catacombs beneath her Kingdom.
However…this comes with a sacrifice…
The Sealer, essentially, will also be sealed away from the land, until the threat to it is vanquished.
Ara then has to make a choice- Seal it and make the sacrifice, or allow her kingdom fight and probably be destroyed…
She makes the sacrifice…and would’ve been sealed away alone, but at the last second, November reaches her, grabbing her hand, joining her as she, and the dark entity, are taken from her land.
does that kinda shed some light On things?? Or sounds kinda interesting? XD
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebHowever…the Light One (God) is always watching over Ara and her friends…
As well as His Guardians (Type and shadow of angels)
in fact I MIGHT (not sure) have the gang meet some or a guardian along their journey.
Maybe even the Guardian that Ara considers like a brother, named Ganesh.
No matter what, Ara and her friends are destined to do greats things for God, just as we are in real life, and some times they are things we must do alone, but God has people, angels, and He is always watching over us/with us 😊 and He already knew His plan, beforehand.
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSeb@godlyfantasy
Cool!! The idea of sealing it away but being sealed out in return is, frankly, epic.
Also, catacombs are just about the coolest places ever XD
No matter what, Ara and her friends are destined to do greats things for God, just as we are in real life, and some times they are things we must do alone, but God has people, angels, and He is always watching over us/with us 😊 and He already knew His plan, beforehand.
Amen to that!
A donation has been made in your name to the Human Fund: Money for People.
@highscribeofaetherium ahh thx!! I’m so glad u think so! That makes me feel so great
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebLol yeah ❤️
So in this book, Ara and November both have a fear of the unknown, but Ara has a more specific fear relating to her responsibilities as a leader, and November just has all that extra baggage.
Sooo all we need to do is think of inciting incidents for each of them, that have to do with their individual development!
If Ara is struggling with being a leader into the unknown, maybe she has to make some important decision in their journey, like in a crossroad of sorts. The ship they stow away on might be part of that. And right as they get on the ship, there’s some sort of sign or signal that they think means they made the wrong decision.
(Of course, WE know it’s not the wrong decision, it’s the right decision, but Ara doesn’t know that.)
They’re already on the ship, and November is nervously telling her it’ll be okay, and she is overcome with worries, because she doesn’t want to be a mess up of a princess.
As for November…
Perhaps something he sees sends him on memory lane, and that’s how his entire load of doubts crash in.
That’s how I would approach the internal inciting incidents!
Although, as for an event catapulting the physical conflict… I’d still make sure it relates to the internal conflict in some way, but also starts off all the crazy plot and stuff. Kind of connecting all the different threads together.
OH OH OH
You know how Zolten was the ringmaster of Cirque?
The LEADER of Cirque??
Why not just connect that to Ara’s internal conflict and call it a day?! She can see the negative effects of evil power and leadership, and that will stress her out even more. And that way, she’ll be more personally invested in the plot, because she wants to know how to NOT be that person who ruins it all, and causes so many unnecessary problems.
That way, Zolten can still be the start of the outward plot. He connects to the different characters in more ways than one.
#ProtectAdolinKholin
@whalekeeper AHHHH I LOVE THAT TIDBIT ABOUT ZOLTEN RELATING TO ARA’S INNER LEADERSHIP STRUGGLE!!! AHHHH!!!
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebLOLOLOL 😂😂😎 There ya go, do with it what you will ❤
So…
Is there some way Zolten’s death might connect with November?
(I mean, fundamentally he’s on the same path as Ara, but it would be nice if it meant something specific to him, too)
…Maybe something to do with November’s dad? Idk.
#ProtectAdolinKholin
This sounds cool! I think Whaley gave some good advice here, but one thing I wanted to mention, I guess.
I usually consider the inciting event to be: the thing that happens, making it so the character can’t go back to normal. But I know that won’t always apply, and each book is unique to itself.
Another thing I noticed — Ara and November seem like they don’t have obvious goals for the story. I know I’m not seeing everything, and I have no idea what the rest of your plot is like, but I’m wondering if maybe (since you said it’s going to run long) you might start having problems with that — if the characters don’t really have goals, the plot might start droning a little. Then again, usually I don’t listen to stuff like that when it comes to my characters XD like giving them really obvious goals. (and I’m not sure how that will end up working for me.) So feel free to ignore me, I would just try to be careful there.
I love reading about writing too! XD tbf tho, reading helps a TON for learning how to write. Do you have any recommendations for writing books? I try to find ones without a lot of language.
Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again. ~ C.S. Lewis
@hybridlore ah yes! Let me explain because I see how that would look considering how I explained it 😅
So…the overarching goal for Ara is this- Somehow find a way back home. To do this she has to somehow defeat Eder, the greatest evil ever. Which is like…crazy.
Novembers goal is basically the same, but it’s more on the lines of Help Ara along and do everything he can to keep her safe because she’s the only good thing in his life.
What they don’t realize (till later) is that they are not the only ones destined to defeat Eder. In fact, their overall destiny is to go around, completing other goals (or missions if you want to put it that way) that they’ve already been destined for, and build the team that will defeat Eder.
So each book has its own goals, subplots, etc, that are all building up to the overarching goal, and they’re building their team as they’re going through each book.
For instance in this book, Ara and N are basically fish out of water, but are quickly thrown in a murder mystery. They would just be passerby’s…if they hadn’t already crossed paths with the girl who is tied up in the middle of the murder plot (Jocelyn)
Also, the two literally can’t leave Cirque because they’re kinda…wanted by the only ship captain on Cirque 😅
So the “goal” ends up being- Solve the murder, Help Lyn, escape Cirque alive.
By the time of the second book, Ara is more confident in her decisions, and her visions, and is more able to discern what God wants them to do/where they’re supposed to go.
Because of this, they meet Grimm, and his rebel group.
The goal of that book becomes: Help Grimm and his people take back their kingdom and basically stop the genocide Kainda is planning….
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