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Hello, Magic Wielders! I have an argument to present to you.
There is no such thing as magic. Well… duh. But I mean not even in fantasy worlds. Not even when wizards with magical staffs shoot lightning at each other or blast cities apart with their minds.
Let me present my case. First of all, I am not saying that Gandalf is a fake, or Eragon’s power is invalid. Obviously, we saw that they weren’t! But ‘magic’ truly does not exist. I think the word ought to be banned from the dictionary. (Okay, maybe I’m not that extreme.)
Think with me for a moment. Envision a glowing, shimmering bubble hovering in a dark room, the light coming from the center of the orb and traveling in long, tentative tendrils through lines of medium endowed with the right mixture of spells and enchanted substance for the transportation of energy. These enchanted filaments hover within the glowing orb, radiating energy stolen from the celestial bodies and bound in place using the secret Spell of Spells, which is the right combination of matter and energy rolled into one and made into perfection. Sounds really magical and spellbinding, doesn’t it?
Actually… it’s a light bulb.There are two kinds of fantastical magic in literature. One kind we find in Middle-earth— it is a mysterious power granted by a Greater Power to those deemed responsible enough to use it— aka, the wizards. If we change worlds, exchange Eru Iluvatar for our own Sovereign God, and replace ‘wizards’ with ‘prophets’, we have the exact same thing. But we don’t consider that magic— we consider it Divine intervention… miracles. So why do we call it ‘magic’ in Middle-earth? The problem does not lie with our definition of miracles, but our definition of magic. There is no such thing as magic.
The second kind of magic in literature (the kind I illustrated with the light bulb) is the kind of system we find in Paolini’s Inheritance Cycle. In the words of Paolini himself, taken directly from the series, ‘magic is the manipulation of energy’. Well… so? We manipulate energy. We harness the wind… we trap the energy of the sun… we bend the elements to do our will (to some extent, at least). Are we magic users?
Now a valid argument against this is that we do not direct the elements using spells or mental power or anything of that sort. We use machines. But I’m still not convinced that it makes so much of a difference. There is no such thing as magic. You don’t believe me? Convince me.
(Or at least give it your best shot 😉Hi Kate,
I’m completely new to this site, so I probably should have started by introducing myself, but your challenge caught my attention, so here goes my first post.
I would offer a possible distinction between miracles and magic.
Definition of miracles: Supernatural works wrought about by a supernatural being/person/entity, often through the use of a human (or, in fantasy, some other rational creature). That human (or other creature) acting as a facilitator of the supernatural act, not as its originator.
Definition of magic: Supernatural works wrought about by a supernatural hodgepodge of something which can be manipulated, but not identified. Magic (in theory at least) is usually facilitated by a material creature, as with miracles.
There is also the subclass of demonic “miracles”. We might call these miracles or magic depending on which suites us better.There is moreover a difference between using machines to create light and using magic. The first is done solely within the spectrum of the capabilities of the human body, while the second relies on an outside power. I’m not familiar with the context of the quote on magic being the manipulation of energy, so I don’t know if I’m way off, but I suspect it has some reference to cosmic or vital “energies” (possible cosmic energies with connections to natural energies.) Such energies are, I suppose, possible, but certainly metaphysical and doubtable, unless they are wrongly classified and truly natural.
I suppose it’s all a matter of definitions, but I’m sticking to the definitions presented here.
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Hey, thanks for taking up my challenge!
You have a good definition of miracles, but I’m not quite convinced about your definition of magic. Magic in the sense I am thinking would fit more in the realm of your definition of miracles. The way you defined magic almost sounds as though there would be a third ‘force’, if you will, a third entity or thing, with or without intelligence or life of its own, besides the Power of Light and the Power of Darkness. For me, there is no power apart from God. There is Lucifer, yes, but his power is from God, and was originally legitimate. What you called supernatural hodgepodge I would probably class as demonic power, but it is still branching originally from God, though it has been perverted beyond recognition.
The waters have been so muddied around magic and all its ‘different forms’ that it is difficult to discuss this with relevance to every theory and system out there, but I am making my argument assuming that all power, however twisted it has become, came at one point from God our Creator. Apart from Him there would be nothing— and if I am building my own world, I wish to make it logical in the way it works. So all power must come from my creator at one point, and be traceable back to him no matter how badly it becomes twisted. Even the ‘magic’ I am working so hard to disprove, because it is there— just mislabeled.I’m not really big on metaphysics… actually, I probably don’t even really know what that word means, but I would dispute what you said about making light with a machine being within the capabilities of the human body, while making it with magic relies on outside forces. I agree about the last part— but we don’t draw energy to make light from our own bodies. We draw the energy from outside forces… maybe even cosmic forces, depending on your definition. We draw it from the sun, and from lightning, or semi-create those different sources by friction and utilize them. If by cosmic forces you meant forces that are intelligent, sentient entities, I would classify that as demonic, even in a fantasy, and even if they are only lumps of intelligent matter. The series I referenced, the Inheritance Cycle, was written by a homeschooled young man named Christopher Paolini, and his magic system is built on the belief that there is energy in every object, living or not, and you only have to know how to access it to use it in many different ways. But the energy is not intelligent— it’s just there. It’s not a deistic force, or anything. Thus, ‘magic is the manipulation of energy.’
Please don’t let my refusal to be convinced scare you away— I love discussion. And I have to ask… please excuse my boldness, but would you by any chance be Thaddeus Lamb? I understand if you don’t wish to tell me for privacy reasons, but I’m curious, because if you are, this is not our first meeting. Daeus is not so common a name, after all.
And regardless of who you are, welcome to Kingdom Pen! Please do be sure to look around— they’ve got a really good thing going here. Don’t forget to peruse the archives, either. Some of their best articles are hidden away in there.Thank you for the reply,
I see I forgot to clarify that my definition of magic as a hypothetical definition of magic. By this I mean that it is a definition of what most people conceive magic as. If someone did a “magical” act in real life, it would either be a trick or a miracle. I think it is a good idea to refer to what others might call magic, in fantasy, as miracles. This is because it points people to the fact that in reality there is no supernatural hodgepodge of something, only God and other spirits. Nevertheless, I do not think that it is incorrect to create a world in which magicians etc rely on a supernatural hodgepodge of something, since it is only a hypothetical world. I would also classify the “supernatural hodgepodge” as a demonic force, but not necessarily in fiction. Perhaps I am confused. I thought you were saying that it was incorrect to use the term magic in fantasy, but perhaps you were only saying that it was incorrect to use it in normal life, and possibly misleading in fantasy. If that is what you meant, I agree. But if you did indeed mean to say that it is incorrect to use the term magic in fantasy, I find myself unfortunately on the opposing side.
Allow me to clarify what I meant by “cosmic force”. A cosmic force is a power which is not physical, but is neither an angelic/demonic being nor a vague undefinable force. It is rather a power which, if not spiritual, operates by set functions, and if spiritual, is probably a human soul/spirit. People lump things into the category of cosmic force either because they do not exist, and they wan’t to disguise the fact, or because there is reason to believe they exist, but we do not know of what they are made, or exactly how they are linked to the natural world. The clearest (and most certainly real) example of this is the soul. It is a spiritual force which is not completely definable, but which we know exists, and which probably has at least partial, if not full control over the body. The energies in the magic system you reference by Christopher Paolini would also fall under this category. Under such a system where you can manipulate energies within objects, you would be dealing with a known force, like electricity is to us. There is still a difference though between manipulating cosmic energies and manipulating natural ones. This is that to manipulate natural energies requires only natural connections (i.e. the touch of a hand against a switch.) whereas it requires a cosmic connection to manipulate cosmic forces. (sorry, I can’t provide an example of a cosmic connection since they are rather metaphysical)
As to my name, Thaddaeous is my middle name. My legal first name, which I never go by, is Jonathan. I always go by Daeus though, which is actually derived from Thaddeus, and yes my last name is Lamb. Allow me to take a guess here then, you go by the pen name M. Graye, correct?
I am defiantly glad I finally joined KP. This is going to be very helpful. I have already read several of the articles, and should probably go back and read the rest.
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Yep, that’s me!
Well, you convinced me… or partly convinced me. In regards to the ‘magic of energy’, your argument had strength right where mine lacked it— the connection between a human and the energy they are manipulating. Good point— I have to say I agree. Congratulations.
And in regards to the ‘miraculous magic’, I think you and I are coming from the same point, and seeing the same argument in the same light, only at a little different perspectives. I was not arguing against the word magic in fantasy— I was probing it and searching it to see why we should regard it in any different light than we should miracles. I cling to my former argument that all powers must stem at one point or another from the creator to be logically sound. Otherwise where did they come from, and how are they legitimate? Even if a magical world has a highly systemic form of magic somewhere in between the energy question and the miraculous question, that power has to come from somewhere. It isn’t logical to say ‘well, it’s just… just there— I don’t know why, it just is.’
That would require a third force aside from the power of the creator (‘white magic’) and the power of the fallen (‘black magic’), the latter form of magic legitimate only because it originally came from the creator. So there should be only one power, one creator, from which all magic or hodgepodge or whatever you wish to call it stems. If they have a system of hodgepodge (as you suggested), even that system had to come from somewhere. Would it not be logical to say that the creator created it as well, as a way his world works, or a means for his creation to protect themselves against the perverted ‘magic’? If there was such a system, I would definitely say that makes any make-believe world different than ours, but the power would still be legitimate because the ruling deity set it in place. Does that make any sense at all? It’s been a pleasure debating with you!I think you meant to say ‘definitely glad’, didn’t you? 🙂 You wrote ‘defiantly glad’. A slip of the fingers, I’m sure. It happens to me ALL THE TIME. And yes, do make sure to read all of KP’s articles. They have some really great ones.
Oops, I did mean definitely not defiantly. I wouldn’t be surprised if that is my number one typo.
In regards to your argument that any third party supernatural power must originate from a higher authority, assuming we are talking about the real world, you are definitely (not defiantly) right. Anyway, I don’t believe such a power exists, so this is a little arbitrary.
If we are talking about fantasy, then it depends on how you create your world. As a Christian, your world would probably be governed by a supreme good god. In such a case, any third party supernatural force would have to be authenticated by this god. In fantasy though, you don’t have to stick to reality. You could, though you probably shouldn’t, create a world where the only supernatural power is what I refer to as a supernatural hodgepodge. Again though, that would probably be a bad idea.
Well, unless you think there are still more details to work out, I’ll look forward to seeing you on some other strand.
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Yes, I think that pretty much covers it. Of course, you could create a world where there was a supreme ruling ‘deistic force’ that was neither one entity or even really anything other than a lot of nonsensical hodgepodge, but as a Christian, I would not feel comfortable presenting such a worldview, nor would I be confident in my ability to portray and explore Christian themes (sacrifice, love, mercy, grace, repentance, and forgiveness) in a world that was overtly pagan. Such a power as we both referred to, the one that must stem from the higher authority, certainly does not exist in our world— thank goodness. If it were beneath the power of the supreme creator in a fantasy world, I would be okay with it— maybe even write such a system myself, though that’s highly unlikely— but I would still tend to shrink from calling it magic. Maybe that’s just a problem I have with the word personally.
But anyway, thanks for the brain-stretching discussion! I really enjoyed it.@kate-flournoy Hmm, so you wanted my thoughts on ‘magic’? I don’t have much time right now, but here are the different categories I have for ‘power’ things…a very unoriginal term, I know. But by this I mean things we normal humans can’t do. And it is all to be thought of in a fantasy setting.
!. Special powers in a fantasy race; such as spinning water into mist (my Sleeping Beauty story) or communicating mentally. I wouldn’t consider this magic.
2. Powers granted by the ‘spiritual’ realm…either the Great King or the Great Enemy. I wouldn’t consider this magic either.
3. Some sort of sciency explanation like controlling energy or electricity (Michael Vey, for instance). This wouldn’t be magic either.
4. The last thing, which I suppose could be considered magic, is if there is some ‘force’ which anyone can tap into and which they can use for good or bad. I’m a little leery of this approach myself, just because it’s not scriptural and is Dynamism. Though if the story isn’t meant to be allegorical or anything, it could work.
Anyway, if you want to get this topic started again, or ask questions to pick my brain, go ahead. Right now I need to go start supper. 🙂
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
I agree with all of your points, more or less. The only one I might have a problem with is your fourth point. What is your definition of ‘Force’? Is it of some deistic, nonliving but intelligent entity that anyone (good or bad) can access and use? Like in Star Wars, if you’ve seen that?
And have you read the Inheritance Cycle? I ask because there are many, many examples I can use from it on this topic if you have indeed read it.
No, I’e not read the Inheritance Cycle…what are they about? But yes, I’ve seen Star Wars. The Force would be a good example of what I’m thinking for point 4. A ‘power’ that isn’t really an intelligent living force, but which is just there.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Right— there are things about the Force that I don’t think fit with a Christian worldview. That being said, I disagree (and I love Star Wars, by the way) that because the Force is just a force that anyone can use, that makes it bad.
My objections to the Force lie in that it is not a non-intelligent entity that’s just there for anyone to use. It has a mind, or at least a will. Notice, ‘The Force is strong with this one,’ not ‘This one is strong in the Force.’ And ‘May the Force be with you,’ not ‘May you have the Force’. It chooses who to help and who not to help— and at the same time it helps bad guys and good guys alike. So it stands for nothing— nothing but power, no matter how that power is employed. That’s my problem with the Force.With the Inheritance Cycle (written by a homeschooled fifteen year old named Christopher Paolini) we also have a system that both good guys and bad guys can use, regardless of how they use it. Outwardly, this system is almost identical to the Force. But there is one major difference. This system is built on energy— material energy that lies in all living things— plants and animals and humans. But it is nothing but energy. It is not a force. It has no mind, and just lies there for anyone to pick up, because it itself is not living. It has no will. It’s just there— a part of that world. There is no Dark side to this force. There is no Light side to this force. It’s just energy. All you have to know is the correct method for picking it up and drawing it out and using it. They do this by means of spells and mental tricks and stuff, and that’s the only magical part of it. Both bad guys and good guys can learn how to access it, but it has no say in the matter.
Think about it like this.
Let’s say I was a bad guy and you were a good guy, and we both went to McDonalds and got a hamburger. You ate your hamburger, and used the energy you got from eating that hamburger to go out and save someones life. I ate my hamburger, and I went out and used the energy I got from that hamburger to rob a bank. Did the hamburger conspire? Did the hamburger have any say whatsoever in the matter? But we both used it to achieve different ends. Was the hamburger evil? Did the hamburger go against Christian principles?Okay, that’s way too long, but oh well. I will leave you to dissect that as best you may.
And… may the hamburgers be with you.
That makes sense with your definition of the Force.
Oh, so the Inheritance Cycle are the Aragon books…I did read the first one. I guess point 4 might better fit that type of magic.
And then there’s also magic (again, one I’m a bit leery of and which is basically dualism…I only know these names because I’m going though a theology course right now) where there is light magic and dark magic, both working against each other and both of equal power.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Hm, that sounds like an interesting one. I don’t know that I’ve encountered that one before. I do definitely think I’d disagree with such a system, from what little you told me about it. It’s not Biblical. It’s not even logically sound.
How can there be two opposing forces within one world, both of equal power? Did the creator of the world create both? Not logical. A spring does not give forth both fresh water and bitter.
Did they both exist in the beginning and together created the world in which they war? Not logical. Two forces so diametrically opposed cannot collaborate to create anything.
Did one come first and the other follow after? Not logical. Say the Light magic came first— that would mean that the Dark magic would only be a perversion of the Light magic, which would make it weaker, not equally strong. As in our world— God created all power. Everything stems from God. And though Satan is certainly powerful, his power is nothing to Christ’s, because his power originally came from Christ, and as such is always subject to Christ.
Even if you say the Dark magic came first, and the Light magic is a perversion of the Dark (which argument in itself is also neither logical nor Biblical) you still have the same problem.Thanks for the opportunity to exercise my logical faculties— it’s not every day I get to do that on such deep grounds! 😛 In case you couldn’t tell, I like picking things apart to get to the root of them and see what they really are. I learn so much that way.
Do you have any more thoughts on this? I’m really enjoying this discussion!
No one said Dualism was logical…and it’s not as if something being illogical ever stopped people in believing in something. 😉 In normal, real life terms, it’s the belief in two gods or principles, one good, one evil. Both are eternal and in conflict. Drawing from that for fantasy ‘magic’ I’d say it would probably be portrayed as two beings…either intelligent or just some general force that the good and bad guys use to try and fight each other. Since both ‘gods’ would be equal…and they’d have to be completely equal or else one would be a god and the other one wouldn’t be, because there was not something greater than him, it would be in the realm of men where the fight would be decided. Some men are more powerful, and they use either the good or bad ‘magic’ to fight their opponents. An interesting idea, I suppose, but not one I’d particularity care to write about since it isn’t theologically correct.
Since, in this view, neither ‘power’ could do anything against the other with the help of man, it would raise up the level of man almost to a god. And this completely skews the whole idea of sin, judgment, the character of god, the surety of…anything.
For the sake of argument, however, I’d say that such a thing wouldn’t have to be completely illogical. The two powers would have to be eternal, not one coming from another. However, there could either be a third power which created the world, although…maybe not. That would create a huge logical mess about it’s place and power. Or perhaps the two powers did combine because they knew they couldn’t beat each other and the only way to get an advantage was to create the earth. So they somehow worked it out and now are trying to defeat each other using man.
Or perhaps there was a big bang out of nothing several billion years before the story and somehow the world came into being. How’s that for some sound logic? 😉
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Ha! Right. Don’t get me started on the illogicality of the Big Bang theory. I could go on for hours and hours and hours.
Yes, as I worked through this argument on my own several months ago, I realized that really the only logical way to set up a system of powers is the way it happened in our world. Imagine that. One supreme power that created everything, one chief partaker of that power who rebelled, and all that stuff. It doesn’t really work any other way.
It’s not logical.
Now of course, if we define logic as two mice sitting on a TV table eating stale popcorn… but let’s not go down that road. 😛 😉
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