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I noticed that the KP Community really loves cliches. Like really.
I stumbled upon a really interesting conclusion about the whole idea of cliches, and it totally changed how I look at them. I published my findings in an article. Click here to read it. The KP Community indirectly inspired the whole article, so it’d be really cool if some of you checked it out and told me what you think of my conclusions.
Lemme arbitrarily tag some people: @kate-flournoy @rolena-hatfield @dragon-snapper @daeus @winter-rose @emma-flournoy @jess @ethryndal @waterandpen @leumeister
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
Hi. I was tagged. 😛
I’m not sure if I like cliches as such, but there are exceptions. Like some cliches are effective in getting a point across, establishing a mood, or something like that, but I’d rather avoid “Dead as a doornail”, and things like that. 😛
@leumeister Yeah, I think cliches are horrible, but what did you think of the article?
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
lol
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@Mark-Kamibaya I couldn’t disagree more. Excuse me. *slightly embarrassed cough*
That is, the article is well written and makes some really good points in support of it’s perspective.
It’s just the perspective I disagree with.The article is perfect if story material is to be derived only from studying other stories, and if the only test of a strong story is how unique and different it is from its contemporaries.
But cliches exist because there is no such thing as an original story. Stories are drawn from life. The strength of a story is determined by its faithfulness to reality and truth. If that sounds contradictory coming from a fantasy author, I beg your pardon. That’s a discussion for another day.
But my point is, from the beginning of time we’ve been telling the same old stories over and over; living the same old stories over and over, and yet each life is precious and unique. Cliches happen because life happens— and on the surface, all lives are the same. We’re born. We live. We search. We find. Sometimes we even find what we were looking for. And then we die. Millions of stories and all of them the same.And yet no one complete story has ever happened twice.
It’s not in the plot twists or the accomplishments or the events in a life or a story that gives the story its weight and worth. It’s the story beneath the story that matters, in real life and with cliches, because that’s all cliches are. It’s the truth beneath the fact that is unique and resonant. Which is itself a bit of a paradox, because there is only one truth, and has been only one from the beginning. But since it is so infinite and so vastly unknowable it is a wonder, and since ultimately the purpose of the entire human race is tied up in it, the subject will never exhaust itself or become old.
I suppose if I’m going that far, I might as well claim there’s no such thing as a cliche. And do you know, I think I will. There are misplaced plot twists, certainly, and concepts so overused that everything’s been said about them and no one can stomach them anymore.
But that does not make them any less valid or any less a part of the truth they belong to.
Writing a story is all about choosing truths that complement each other and bring each other out. There are right and wrong truths to use for enhancing other truths, and a misplaced truth can certainly kill the resonance in a story.
But that doesn’t make it a cliche.Thoughts?
Tsk, tsk, @kate-flournoy, there you go–always being so…blunt. But seriously, good points.
Here’s my take. I wasn’t tagged, but I’m going to talk anyway. Sorry, @mark-kamibaya
The way I see it, this whole thing comes down to how you define a cliche. Taking a frequently used plot-twist, such as a “Luke, I am your father” type of moment, gets rather old after a while, and becomes very predictable if used too much. That, to me, is the definition of a cliche, but the term can very easily become generalized.
Kinda like Kate said, all ideas are drawn from somewhere. At the foundation of every story is some element from the real world. How you take that element, bend and shift it into your own version, can take your story from cliche to original, and therefore, less predictable and more interesting.
Kate said it better. But there’s my two cents.
Writer. Dreamer. Sometimes blogger. MBTI mess. Lover of Jesus and books.
@Mark-Kamibaya Fascinating topic. And your presentation of conventions versus clichés makes a lot of sense.
I’m going to have to agree with @Kate-Flournoy that I don’t believe clichés are to be avoided like the plague. (Har, har, see what I did there?). And to expound on her point, you can take the true story @Daeus just shared as an example. His great-grandfather helped smuggle a girl disguised as boy out of somewhere. A thousand stories have been written about similar situations, right? But that’s because stuff like that actually happens. Avoiding clichés so ardently that you stretch the bounds of what we can see in real life sounds risky to me. And, of course, I don’t mean writing about dragons and stuff is a no-go. Writers figured out that the story is in the people, not the setting of a story a long time ago.
Now, cliches can definitely drag a story down in certain situations, but I think a lot of that has to do with how they’re presented. When clichés start messing with your readers’ “suspension of disbelief” you’ve got a problem. *pulsating red lights illuminate the entire thread* Red alert, red alert! A plot twist that makes zero sense being used simply to break cliché is obviously off-limits.
And I think botching foreshadowing is when “conventions” really become “clichés”. If the readers see a convention coming a mile away, it immediately begins to feel clichéd. There are books I’ve read (K. M. Weiland’s Dreamlander comes mind) where I’ve been reading along, totally enthralled, and as soon as I finish and begin to rave about it to my siblings I realize that it sounds terribly cliché.
“Okay, we got your classic hot-shot with a snarky sense of humor who avoids getting close to people, and he has to save the world and he falls in love with the super serious girl who is all about duty and honor and all that stuff.”
Cliché, right?
But Weiland manages to present it in a way that keeps my eyes riveted on the page by making sure that I’m never sure what’s goings to happen even though I can look back and see that each plot point has been done in similar stories dozens of times.
Basically, if your bare-bones plot is clichés, you can save it by simply shaking up the order of things or triple coating it in quirks of originality.
I’m thinking all this has already been said by you and Kate, but I’ve enjoyed typing it all out and sifting through it for myself so thanks for the opportunity!*is probably geeking out about something*
Yay! This is gonna start some (lively) discussions.
@kate-flournoy I admit I was confused by your response. A little worried but more confused. @that_writer_girl_99 gave a popular explanation. Then, @graciegirl clarified it for me a little more. But I’m still quite confused (maybe it’s because I lack sleep, but whatevs).From what I understand, Kate’s saying that stories imitate life. Lives pretty much follow the same pattern. Therefore, cliches are unavoidable. With all the stories told you’re bound to repeat something. Story doesn’t depend on complete originality. It depends on the truth the story is telling, and how that truth is being told.
Elizabeth supports Kate’s rejection of the whole idea of cliches, because it depends on the definition. We’re defining cliches differently.
Jenni-Grace says that cliches shouldn’t be avoided, because they can be used to create an enticing original story.
Tell me if I got anything wrong.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@kate-flournoy @graciegirl @that_writer_girl_99
Personally, I think I didn’t write the article very well, because you’re not getting my main point. Lemme break down what I was trying to say in this article.
In the beginning, I sided with the belief that cliches are . . . well, the devil. Then, I defined a cliche as anything so overused it becomes predictable and boring.
After that, I plotted how original ideas become conventions. Then, eventually they become cliches, because the audience gets tired of the same thing. The original ideas become cliches, but there was (in general) a point where they were accepted.
But here’s the killer: cliches are subjective. What one person views as a cliche, other sees as super fresh. I side with the relativism of cliches.
My application is where I might’ve messed up. I do support the belief that there are a few cliches that are universal. The funny thing is that I reject that belief in the next paragraph.
What I wanted was the understanding that certain writers should reject conventions that they view as cliches, because it wouldn’t work for the writers themselves. They should embrace conventions that are essential to a genre.
But, overall, just create a great story. Don’t obsess over cliches. They’re not important enough.
So, essentially, I’m saying the same thing as Kate. Cliches aren’t something to be overly concerned about, because it’s the truth that matters . . .
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@Mark-Kamibaya my apologies. 😉 I was also operating on a low battery when I wrote that, so it’s probably not as clear as it could have been.
You got it though. And you’re right, I didn’t realize that was what you’re saying, and if that’s the case there’s no debate, because I totally agree. 😛@Mark-Kamibaya @Kate-Flournoy
Yep. I think we’re all operating under different definitions,( *cough* Who’s on first? *cough* ) and I was tired when I posted as well so that makes for all of us being a little foggy-brained. Rereading what I wrote last night has me swearing off engaging in any writing debates past six in the evening from now on. XD
I think I’m clearer now though, and I see that I do agree with you, Mark.But, overall, just create a great story. Don’t obsess over cliches. They’re not important enough.
That’s what I was trying to say. I don’t think someone freaking out if they have a clichéd element in their story is entirely warranted. If they write it well, it shouldn’t bother the readers too much.
*is probably geeking out about something*
LOL! 😀 It’s hilarious how easily our brains can become mush. And I realize I came off a bit strong so, sorry if anybody got irritated or anything. Either way, you guys showed me how I need to clarify things in my writing. My main point definitely wasn’t that clear. I’ll probably update the article and tweak it a bit before I send out my monthly newsletter. So thanks!
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@Mark-Kamibaya I know. 😛 One tiny bit over the limit and my brain is guaranteed to be fried for the rest of the day. XD
Hey, it’s all good. It wasn’t irritating; or if it was I didn’t notice. I’m not thin-skinned enough to be irritated by other people’s strongly stated opinions. 😉 Perhaps I should be more sensible of that… 😛
Share it with us again when you finish up with it.
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