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Music as a hard magic system is probably gonna be difficult, as what makes music magical to us is the feeling that it can’t be perfectly quantified
I think that the way music works is actually less ephemeral than non-music theory people think. The reason why music affects us the way it does is still mysterious, but the mechanics by which it does are not so hard to understand.
For example, a skilled musician can look at sheet music and, without playing it analyze it and get a fair understanding of what’s at work.
This magic system would focus on the ideas of building interest, and resolutions and such.
In short, while we can’t quantify how music affects us, we actually can understand it fairly well, so I don’t think that will be the hardest thing to do. What will be hard is that music, even what we understand, is very complex, so I basically have to make an equally complicated magic system.
Anyways, sorry for the music nerd rant! Thanks for your feedback!
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📚 Appreciator of BooksGreat point! The math behind it is most definitely there, with patterns that can easily be analyzed in most cases. And I personally regard math as magical in its own way, though just in a different way from music. That could be a cool duel magic system with soft and hard elements with the analytical side, and the perceptual side.
So question about the 12 note scale. Someone could make beautiful music out of a 13 note scale, and it could also be analyzed the same, but will it suddenly have no magical effects? That could actually make an interesting worldbuilding concept, where if someone wants to make regular music without any worries of magical impact, they would just use a different note scale. You mentioned that you didn’t want to get into making a different scale, but I think that would just be what naturally happens if that’s the case.
Anyways, thanks for explaining, and never apologies for a good nerd rant of any kind (to me at least).
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So question about the 12 note scale. Someone could make beautiful music out of a 13 note scale, and it could also be analyzed the same, but will it suddenly have no magical effects?
Good question. I didn’t think about that. I’m going to say that it probably would work as well, because I’m thinking that the magic will be based more on emotional impact than the sound physics behind it, but I’m not sure.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksInteresting, I do think that would make more sense, but that also makes the 12 far more arbitrary, though once again, you could put it up to some form of fancy. This could be interesting to explore though, because perhaps different cultures might work with different systems, so they can do all the same things, but they can’t read one another’s work as well. It would also be interesting because one couldn’t make music without it having a magical impact, which may not always be desirable.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Interesting, I do think that would make more sense, but that also makes the 12 far more arbitrary, though once again, you could put it up to some form of fancy
I’m not too concerned about being arbitrary, but maybe I should be more. I mean, I have a planet whose culture resembles medieval Europe. That would probably be way less likely than a planet developing a similar musical scale to our most commonly used one.
It would also be interesting because one couldn’t make music without it having a magical impact, which may not always be desirable.
I haven’t decided too much about the source of the magic. It might be only certain people who can use. I haven’t even decided if instruments work or only vocals. There’s a lot to explore.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksI’m not too concerned about being arbitrary, but maybe I should be more. I mean, I have a planet whose culture resembles medieval Europe. That would probably be way less likely than a planet developing a similar musical scale to our most commonly used one.
Yeah, and of course you don’t have to be, as this is your world, there’s no law that says that it can’t resemble some feature that is the same as ours. The very worst is that someone notices and calls you lazy, when your really just putting your effort elsewhere.
I haven’t decided too much about the source of the magic. It might be only certain people who can use. I haven’t even decided if instruments work or only vocals. There’s a lot to explore.
True, there’s countless directions you can go with it, and like I said, the examples of music based magic systems are quit substantial, so there’s a lot to draw from.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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This is a magic system idea that has been floating around in my head for a while. It’s pretty rough, so far, but here’s what I’ve figured out.
The basic premise is that you make sacrifices to gain power. (Not like ritualistic sacrifices. I just mean giving something up.)
Here are a few basic rules.
- The power gained is directly proportional to how much you value the thing you give up. This makes it relative. For one person, something might be supremely valuable, and therefore give him extreme power if he gives it up, while for another, it may be near worthless, and he barely gains any power. This also makes it you so you can’t cheat the system by “sacrificing” something you want to get rid of.
- You can only sacrifice things that belong to you. This rule is a bit vague, since how do you define what “belongs” to you? If you steal something, can you sacrifice it? Or if something is stolen from you, can you sacrifice it if you aren’t in possession of it? It basically has to do with perception, although that only goes so far. If you perceive another human being as belonging to you, you still won’t be able to sacrifice that person. You also can’t sacrifice something like someone else loving you, since that takes something from them as well.
- The way costs are transferred can vary. For one thing, you can sacrifice many different things: objects, emotions, abilities, even your life. Some of these are immediately taken, others are temporary and so is their power, and others are taken later. Some instead of being directly taken at all, invoke a fate-like force that inevitably leads to the cost being paid.
I think there’s a lot to explore with this concept. For example, how you value something might change over time. Imagine temporarily sacrificing you sense of smell. One person might think “eh, no big deal,” while another might think “ugh, that would be awful.” The first person would gain less power than the second. Then imagine that as time passes, the first guy begins to value his sense of smell more since he doesn’t always have it. The power he gains would increase. The second guy might begin to think being without the sense of smell isn’t so bad after all, and the power would diminish. This could also be used as a weapon. Say you were sacrificing your sense of smell to gain power for a fight, and your opponent throws something that smells horrendous at you. You think “I sure am glad I can’t smell that.” You can’t sacrifice something if you prefer to not have it, so your sense of smell suddenly returns, and your powers go away.
That’s just one example. There are many cool things to do with this. What are your thoughts? Questions?
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I’m just randomly popping in here, lol
How do you guys come up with this stuff? IT’S SO GOOD! I could never. I should hire you peoples to make magic systems for me, lol
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LEFSE FOREVER!!!!!! <333Thank you! I wouldn’t call myself great at it. I don’t really have a system, I just let my mind wander until I come up with something that has potential.
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Cool! Trade off magic systems are always really fun, because they have good narrative effects. Someone that just wants power may have trouble getting a lot of it, because they care about it more than what they have to sacrifice. Someone that does have things they care about enough, they don’t want to sacrifice that. So no one is going to be overpowered, because they only people that can go that far, wouldn’t want to. That being said, I see one big loophole that you could either cover up, or you could embrace as something only a few have figured out to get really powerful. Imagine someone really cares about having power. They give up something they care about only a little, like their sense of smell. After this, they give up their current power, which is what they want most, and they get something equal to that desire. As their lust for power grows, they can trade it off again. I think this could be really cool, but there’s several different ways to say this doesn’t work if you don’t like that.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
How do you guys come up with this stuff? IT’S SO GOOD! I could never. I should hire you peoples to make magic systems for me, lol
Thanks! It isn’t easy for me. This one has been marinating in my brain for a long time, and it’s still only half-baked. Like if you asked me to just come up with one right now, I couldn’t come up with anything very good. My magic systems emerge from a bunch of things in my head, usually combining a bunch of ideas. Writing things down might help. I don’t spend a whole lot of time actually planning my magic systems, the ideas just gradually congregate and come together subconsciously, and then suddenly I find myself with a good idea.
Someone that just wants power may have trouble getting a lot of it, because they care about it more than what they have to sacrifice.
Actually, how much you want the power doesn’t affect how hard it will be to get it. Only how much you value the thing you are sacrificing matters.
Imagine someone really cares about having power. They give up something they care about only a little, like their sense of smell. After this, they give up their current power, which is what they want most, and they get something equal to that desire.
I don’t think that would be a problem, because this would just be an example of your values changing. To get a better power than the one you currently have, you have to start valuing the one you already have higher.
My favorite thing about this magic system is that it is automatically completely balanced. You can’t get a power without giving up something you care about. You can’t get a really good power without giving up something you really care about. The most powerful people are the people willing to sacrifice the most. There are so many interesting characters you could have, because there are so many crazy things you could sacrifice.
You could sacrifice a body part, you could sacrifice a memory, you could sacrifice your sanity, you could even sacrifice money, effectively letting you buy power. (It wouldn’t be a very good power, unless you really liked money.)
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📚 Appreciator of BooksOkay, I don’t know what I was thinking last night. Let me think through this again. Let’s say you sacrifice the thing you value most. The power you got must now be the thing you value most, because otherwise you wouldn’t have done it. So if you sacrifice that power, you must get something better than that, so that would just let you infinitely upgrade. Here’s a new rule that should eliminate that possibility:
- The thing you gain can’t be a replacement for the thing you gave up. For example, you couldn’t give up your arm and gain an advanced robotic arm that’s just better.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksFair enough. I feel like there could be logical loopholes still to get around that. Like in the case of getting a robotic arm to replace an existing arm, what if you control your perception enough, to say “I give my “flesh arm” for a “metal appendage with these qualities” or something like that. As long as you can convince yourself that it is not an improvement of what was. This fixes the infinite upgrade of magic, but there still could be other things where if in control of your perception, you can still cheat the system a bit. I’m still ok with this, but maybe I’m biased for loopholes. This does bring another thing into question though. This is the skeleton of the magic system, but what are the guts? What is the “power” that we’re talking about, power to do what?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Yeah, that’s the main thing I haven’t figured out, the powers of the system. In some cases, I think it would be cool to have the benefit be related to the cost, like maybe sacrificing your ability to see color for better vision overall. But I’m not sure if that would work as a general principle. I’m not sure what the powers will be.
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