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Yeah, that’s always been an issue I’ve had with stuff like Harry Potter. If explained in that light, it would actually become significantly more intriguing. I’ve had the thought before, but haven’t explored it too much. If sci-fi is regarded as a magic system, then that could be coxed into the idea of human made magic systems, though they only obey higher laws, so it’s really no different from things like the cosmere for example. There would have to be higher laws anyways though. The human creation of magic systems in a universe is itself a magic system, so there would either have to be higher laws that govern how the magic systems are made, or there could perhaps be more open ended possibilities, which allow the contradictions to occur. For example, if this is itself a magic system, could someone make a identical magic system in it? This would mean that the magic system is Turing complete, which is what I’ve pondered about the most for a potential magic system with paradoxes.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I’m guessing that the reason the subjects isn’t ever really approached is that if humans can create magic systems, then there must be an underlying magic that lets them do that, which would have to be pretty technical.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksI replied before I read the end of your message. Yeah, I agree with that. It would be quite technical, but I could definitely see an interesting fantasy universe where magic systems can be created by humans, using the underlying magic.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksYeah, I was confused by your first message for a second😂 I’ve played with the idea for a while now of a Turing complete magic system for the particular purpose of creating paradoxes, but everything I’ve done just doesn’t work for me yet. I’m definitely gonna keep working on it though, because I’m the stubborn type😅 I still wonder though, what would really happen with said “kinks” and problems in the system, of course it can cause undesirable effects, but how could it perhaps be tamed for uses both good and bad?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I haven’t put much thought into it, but, thinking of it like a computer program, it would basically be a set of instructions or rules, and they might have ‘glitches’ as a result of unnoticed errors in logic or something.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksRight, but I’m asking about what would really happen when the glitches come about? Though they would originally be errors, I’m trying to think of ways they might have specifically unique effects that could be used, no longer a mistake, but a feature.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I suppose the glitches could do pretty much anything, since they are unintentional. It could just make it so that an ability doesn’t work, or it could do some dangerous but still potentially useful. I think it would be very different depending on if the story is set long after the magic was created, in which case the kinks and glitches would be known, or if it was set shortly after, in which case people would still be discovering the glitches and figuring out what uses they had.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksYeah, that would make sense. I’m gonna continue working on it. I just don’t know if I’ll ever use it or not, because it doesn’t really fit the laws of the Septrum, and would just be some other small story to write, unless it is a system above the laws of the Septrum, and the Septrum’s laws are themselves made from it, which is similar to what I’ve already pondered, but we’ll see.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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@other any magic system peopleSo you may remember the magic system I shared a few weeks ago, called “Essenceburning.” (I’ll repost it below for easier reference.) I said I wasn’t particularly happy with it. It feels a bit derivative. Partially that’s because it uses elements, which is probably the most common magic system there is, but for another thing, I feel like I essentially stuffed the classical elements into Mistborn’s magic system. I am now trying to revise it, and I could use some feedback on it. What’s good about it? What’s bad? Any ideas for what specifically would improve it? Specifically, how could it break free from feeling similar to Allomancy?
Here’s what I posted on it earlier:Essenceburning
This system revolves around the classic elements (fire, earth, water, and air.) I call them “Essences” rather than “Elements,” because in their world (which hasn’t been developed yet,) they aren’t actually elements, as in the basic materials all things are made of. I’m not completely sold on the name “Essences” either though.
Users of the magic system don’t control these “essences” in the typical way that elemental magic usually works. Instead, they are fueled by the essences, but their abilities aren’t directly related to them.
Fire
People with this ability are called “Firesurgers.” They inhale flames to access their abilities. (Stormlight Archive fans might recognize the inspiration for this.) While using them, they gain incredible speed and reactions, as well as being on fire. (They are of course immune to flames.)
WaterPeople with this ability are called “Rainbringers.” They fuel their abilities using the water in their own bodies, and therefore must remain hydrated. Their abilities let them telekinetically push and pull water. (Similar to how in Mistborn, they can only push and pull metal directly towards or away from them.) Rainbringer can also force water to turn to ice or steam.
AirPeople with this ability are called “Airshapers.” They fuel their abilities with the air in their lungs (so they have a much easier time than some of the others.) Their abilities let them control air.
Earth
People with this ability are called “Earthstanders.” They access their abilities by being in physical contact with the “earth.” How this works is that basically the planet releases an energy that they use which is conducted through natural materials. Dirt and stone conduct best, while metal blocks in completely. Earthstanders gain increased strength and resilience, and a limited ability to control stone.Some people have multiple of these abilities, but it is rarer.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksHmmm, that’s hard, because you can tell it’s a bit derivative from a lot of preexisting ideas. To change that would be to radically change the system as a whole, which is fine, just annoying, but often necessary.
One issue I immediately have is with the name and the first element. If it is called “essence burning” does that not show an inherent bias to the only element that has anything to do with burning? This obviously is an easy fix and has nothing to do with the system itself, but I still thought it worth pointing out.
To give advice on the actual system though, it would help if you knew how much you want to change, because you introduce the core concept being centered around the classical elements. So do you still want a classical elemental system, a different elemental system, or something completely different? I’ll stick to the classical Greek elements for now, since that seems to be your original premise. The Greek elements are honestly overused, but that doesn’t mean you can’t make something different, take Avatar the Last Airbender for example (please watch it).
So if you want the classical elements, but want to stray from Mistborn vibes, then lets ask a few questions.
First and foremost, what’s the big “what if” mechanic? I actually made a whole separate forum on what I mean by this, and I can tag you if you want. I think this applies to magic systems in particular though, because what is a magic system, if not a mechanic almost by definition. So the skeleton to start with is the Greek elements, water, earth, fire, air, so the mechanic in this case would likely be how you interact with each element, or perhaps how the elements interact with one another to create a complete system.
The mechanic in Avatar is ‘What if people could use martial art forms to manipulate, or “bend” the elements around them’ instead of being able to point a finger and water obeys, you have to move with the water, using every muscle in your body, creating a far more visually dynamic system perfect for a tv show.
I was discussing another Greek element magic system with a friend recently, and one idea we had was pointing out how each element seemed to form steps of substantiality. First earth, the most solid, then water, then air, then fire. Each element, when influenced in the right way would bridge you to some degree to the spiritual realm. Earth is the most substantial, but least spiritual, but water when triggered, can lead you to have dreams in the spirit realm, air can lead you to have visions, where your more lucid, and fire can bring you completely into the spirit realm, and permanently if your not careful.
There’s a lot of potential ways you could look at the Greek elements that should be far less derivative, you just need to find a mechanic.
(Warning, science nerd vomiting information)
One thing I notice that I find interesting is that you mention the rainbringers can change the temperature of water. This isn’t uncommon in Greek elemental systems, but why is it unique to water? Temperature change is powerful. What would happen if you gave this ability to all of them? Earth could create lava, water can make ice and steam as you’ve pointed out, oh wait, what about air and fire? Air can heat up and cool down, and this could have really cool effects, however, what if you heated it enough that it becomes fire? Could airshapers perhaps become firesurgers? Fire, by its nature, is hot. You could cool it down and warm it up, and that might effect the color, but not much else, unless you cool it off to the point that it is put out. Wait, what are firesurgers controlling in the first place? Fire is a chemical reaction of existing particles, so is a firesurger just manipulating said particles, thus, is a firesurger secretly just an airshaper? But if Airshapers and Firesurgers both are just manipulating existing particles in the air, what makes those particles inherently different from the particles in the earth? If a rock is crushed enough, and pumped into the air, did it just transfer from earth to air? I could keep going, but I think you can plainly see my point. Most don’t care to get into the chemistry involved, because it happens to be very annoying in regard to the classical Greek elements, however, I think it can be helpful, and can even enhance the nature of the magic system to pick at the real details of it. You could even say we’re operating on fundamentally different physics, so the elements we’re discussing may be something completely different, but I digress.
So in that case, what makes these elements different from one another fundamentally? The stuff their made of? That can’t be the whole story, because fire is specifically a chemical reaction of particles. Though this could be ignored, and firesurgers can only control those existing particles that can cause those sorts of reactions, whereas airshapers perhaps can only control another set of particles, particles that cannot combust when heated, though that seems to give firesurgers an upper hand, because they get both airshaper powers and their own. So what else might work? If fire is specifically the reaction of particles, meaning it is a set of particles and the action of said particles, and a thermal range of influence, could there be similar lines of application for the others? water is made of H2O particles, and the action of said particles would likely be an excited state, which would make me want to say that it might be better to apply a thermal range, making ice and steam not possible, otherwise fire should be allowed to act like air. Air might operate in a similar fashion to water, where there is a specific thermal range, and a set of particles in a high excited state. Earth again follows suit, with a lower thermal range, and a large set of particles with a low action state.
Ok, so that was a rant, but how does that help us? Well, for one, it sets a few boundaries of what is and isn’t possible, like the temperature change (Of course, that whole rant ran under the assumption that the elements should follow a specific logical symmetry, which doesn’t have to be the case, and we can discuss different possibilities there too). This places a harder frame for the four elements, but it also leaves out a lot more matter than it already did. Is that perhaps something we could explore? Why when we change the parameters, like the particle elements involved, or the temperature of said elements, it suddenly is no longer one of the elements, and therefore cannot be influenced. Could this perhaps be abused? Imagine your in combat, and you can tweak the element your opponent is using, rendering it suddenly useless. Fire could be very good at this, heating the other elements to the point that they become unusable, but the other elements could just as easily put the fire out. This makes sense, because earth can’t be “put out” like fire, but it could be transferred into a different state like fire.
This is just one route you could go down, and there are other ways you could look at it, but maybe that might help at least jog some ideas.
Also, I found it interesting that you mentioned that firesurgers light on fire themselves when they activate. So can’t they live off their own fire indefinitely? It becomes just as easy for them as it does for the airshapers once they light a match. That could be really interesting. Fire is the only element that can grow, so it makes sense in a way.
I would also say you should revise what each group can do, because you didn’t really seem to know what to do with air especially, essentially making them no more than airbenders, which are cool, but it doesn’t follow the theme. Also, three of the elements are taken orally, even though it is focused on different parts of the body, so should earth also be ingested? I get the theme your going for, but then why is fire taken orally?
I hope my rant to helpfulness ratio was balanced enough. Those are some of my unfiltered thoughts, but I would love to continue discussing different possibilities!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Thanks for all this! It definitely helps!
One thing I notice that I find interesting is that you mention the rainbringers can change the temperature of water. This isn’t uncommon in Greek elemental systems, but why is it unique to water?
Basically, the reason I did this is that water seemed the weakest of the four. If all you could do was push and pull it, unless you had a lot of water there wouldn’t be much you could do. But if you can change it in to boiling steam or freeze it, it becomes a lot more effective. As for why I didn’t do this for the other elements:
1. water is already a liquid, the middle state of matter, so you just need to cool it a bit to freeze it, or warm it a bit to boil it. Air is a gas, so heating it wouldn’t turn it into something else, and you would have to cool it a ridiculous amount to turn it into liquid or solid. Fire isn’t matter in the first place, so heating or cooling it isn’t going to do much. Earth could be heated into lava, but that would feel sort of like fire. Allowing most of these would be overpowered.
2. Water is limited to a few hundred degrees range, which wouldn’t really be enough to change the state of matter of the others.
Wait, what are firesurgers controlling in the first place? Fire is a chemical reaction of existing particles, so is a firesurger just manipulating said particles, thus, is a firesurger secretly just an airshaper?
So the weird thing about firesurgers is that they actually don’t control their element. Instead they just get a speed boost. I did this partially because it was weird to think of Firesurgers moving fire. Fire doesn’t really move separately from the object it’s burning. So yeah, firesurgers are weird, because they’re abilities aren’t really related to their element.
Most don’t care to get into the chemistry involved, because it happens to be very annoying in regard to the classical Greek elements
I actually did do some thinking about the science. That’s why Fire is different, from the others, because it isn’t actually matter. That’s also why earth works the way it does, because “earth” is an extremely vague concept. What qualifies as “earth”?
Why when we change the parameters, like the particle elements involved, or the temperature of said elements, it suddenly is no longer one of the elements, and therefore cannot be influenced. Could this perhaps be abused? Imagine your in combat, and you can tweak the element your opponent is using, rendering it suddenly useless.
Giving fighters away to prevent essenceburners from getting their essence is something I intentionally built in to some degree. Fire can be extinguished. Earthstanders need to be touching the ground. Aurshaper’s are a bit trickier, but if you wind one, he won’t be able to get as much air. I realized that water doesn’t really have a weakness, so I’m thinking that maybe they won’t be able to affect ice or steam. They could still turn water into ice or steam, but once they did, they couldn’t affect it.
Also, I found it interesting that you mentioned that firesurgers light on fire themselves when they activate. So can’t they live off their own fire indefinitely? It becomes just as easy for them as it does for the airshapers once they light a match.
Yes, they can use those flames indefinitely. It’s a biproduct of fire not being made of matter. However, the flames could be extinguished pretty easily by enough water or a heavy enough blast of wind.
I would also say you should revise what each group can do, because you didn’t really seem to know what to do with air especially, essentially making them no more than airbenders, which are cool, but it doesn’t follow the theme. Also, three of the elements are taken orally, even though it is focused on different parts of the body, so should earth also be ingested? I get the theme your going for, but then why is fire taken orally?
The reason earth is taken the way it is is because you can’t really define “earth,” so I instead made them use the energy of the planet, which can’t be ingested. It might make sense to have Fire work a different way. Maybe just bring on fire is enough. And you’re right about air—I didn’t really know what to do with it, so I went with something generic. I’m going to try out some other ideas for it.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts! That was helpful. I’ll try some more ideas on this.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksHere’s an idea: I could have several different powers related to each element, and have each person only have one. That way I could have many unique systems. For example, using water, one power could let someone animate it, one could let someone freeze and boil it, maybe one could let someone turn into water. If I do something like that for all four, I can have a wide cast of unique abilities.
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📚 Appreciator of BooksOne issue I immediately have is with the name and the first element. If it is called “essence burning” does that not show an inherent bias to the only element that has anything to do with burning?
I forgot to address this. The name is the result of laziness on my part, and I have always considered it a placeholder. The “burning” part is just directly copied from Mistborn, cause I didn’t want to come up with a word of my own at the time. I’ll probably end up changing both of these terms.
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📚 Appreciator of Booksit would help if you knew how much you want to change, because you introduce the core concept being centered around the classical elements. So do you still want a classical elemental system, a different elemental system, or something completely different?
I would be open to extended elements, but I worry that it would be more cliche than just the four Greek elements. I at one point had a draft for a lightning element, but I couldn’t think of anything interesting to do with it, and I couldn’t think of any other elements I wanted to use, so I just went back to the four main ones.
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@thearcaneaxiomI have finally nailed down some details for the magic system in my WIP (the post I made about it is still being moderated apparently, even though it was a week ago, unless it got lost somehow. Do you think I should repost it?)
It’s still a bit rough, but here’s how it works so far. I wanted to make it feel like a traditional fantasy soft magic system, but to still be a hard magic system, so here’s what I’ve come up with so far:
The magic system is currently called ‘Arcweaving,’ although I may change it. It involves manipulating an energy called Arcflux by creating things called Arcpoints. Arcpoints come in positive and negative varieties. Positive ones exert a push force, and negative ones exert a pull force. On their own, a single Arcpoint can be dangerous. Single Arcpoints are mostly used to break things. Negative ones can implode objects and positive objects can explode them.
The two types of Arcpoints are used to “cap” each other, containing the otherwise potentially dangerous energy flow. The Arcpoints don’t have to be the same size–a small Arcpoint can still cap a large one, and doing so allows you to get a push or pull effect while still having a safety cap.
A common combat use of Arcpoints is using them to shoot pieces of Arcflux energy. A positive Arcpoint is used for the starting point and a negative one aims.
Arcpoints can be used for very complex spells, but it all comes down to their basic mechanics. In this way, this magic system isn’t as hard as some of the other ones I created, because there are a lot of possibilities in it that I don’t have time to explore.
Arcpoints can even be used to bend time and space to some extent. Two Arcpoints can create a “window” between two locations.
Objects can be permanently imbued with Arcpoints, giving that object a lasting magical ability. (Example: the Eivir swords if you’ve read my WIP’s overview.)
Arcpoints also allow metaphysical transference. (Example: Argaroth putting his soul inside another object.)
That’s basically what I have for this magic system so far. I’m probably going to tweak these basic mechanics, because they’re a bit vague still. What do you think?
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