Magic and Fantasy

[Reagan Ramm]

@Sarah:

Thank you for bringing up your concerns and presenting them civilly. 🙂 We’ve had similar discussions on this issue in the past, and I know I speak for the whole KP staff when I say we want KP to be a place for the sharing of many different viewpoints and ideas.

While you make a lot of good points, you also make a lot of assumptions and assertions that are not based in Scripture, which is troubling to me. I went through your post and listed all the arguments I believed you to be making. Let me know if I misrepresented any of your arguments. Below are my responses to each of them.

Argument 1: Including “creatures of darkness” in a story equates to glorifying them.

You say,

“Which Kingdom are we glorifying when we include creatures of darkness like vampires, zombies, werewolves, witches, wizards, sorcerers, magicians, ghosts, elves, mermaids, aliens, and fairy dragons in our stories?”

You are implying that we cannot glorify God by including these creatures in our stories. However, where is your Biblical support? You don’t give a Biblical argument for why merely including these creatures in our stories would be serving Satan.

It can’t be you believe this is so just because these creatures are evil (though I would argue not everything on that list is evil). If you think that we are glorifying Satan rather than God by including evil in our stories, then to be consistent, you must also believe that the Bible is glorifying Satan by including evil people, actions, and descriptions. In fact, the Bible even includes examples of witchcraft.

The reason why I think it is possible to include evil (and evil creatures) in a story and still have it glorify God is because the Bible does this very thing.
What power does salvation have if we do not know what we are being saved from? Is God really so great and so good if all He did was the spiritual equivalent of forgiving us for being late to church?

Here is an article I wrote dealing with this topic you might want to check out.
Writers Of Light

Argument 2: We are “dabbling in witchcraft” when we include fantasy creatures in our stories

Again, where is your Biblical evidence? You are making a claim the Bible doesn’t. The Bible says witchcraft is a sin. The Bible also says that murder is a sin, and stealing, and lying. If it is wrong to write about witchcraft, then again to be consistent, you must also believe it is wrong to write about any kind of sin. Are we dabbling in murder by including depictions of murder? are we dabbling in dishonesty when we depict a character that lies?

What kind of stories then would we as Christians be permitted to write where sin is off-limits? We’d be reduced to writing stories where the only conflict would be our Christmas cookies getting left in the oven too long and burned.

Argument 3: Because something has a bad origin, it is therefore bad in its current form by default (like Tolkien writing stories influenced by European mythology)

Here you are committing the Genetic logical fallacy. You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came.

To give you an example of why this argument is invalid, take the cross for example. Crucifixion was used for only the worst criminals. According to Judaism, any man who was hung from a tree was cursed. The cross is a pretty horrid symbol. And yet, now it is seen by Christians as a sign of God’s love. It’s a reminder of His sacrifice. We don’t go around saying, “Oh, I don’t want to have anything to do with the cross. That’s for criminals.” No, instead, Christ tells us to take up our crosses daily.

Just because something had a bad origin, doesn’t mean it is bad now. If so, then it would also be wrong for Christians to celebrate Christmas and use and participate in many other things.

Your Logical Fallacy is Genetic

Argument 4: By writing about fantasy creatures, we are meditating on them and entering into an evil realm.

Where is your Biblical support for this assertion? When we read in the Bible accounts of murder, greed, rape, are we by default meditating on these things and entering into an evil realm? Should we avoid reading these passages of scripture?

Argument 5: Some of these fantasy creatures are actually real, and manifestations of the nephillim.

I find this argument especially concerning, because the Bible does not make this claim. I have no idea what your source is for this claim, but it’s not the Bible.

Argument 6: We shouldn’t take something bad and portray it as good.

No arguments from me here. I agree with you! 🙂 In fact, we have written about this pretty extensively in various posts on Kingdom Pen.

Argument 7: Good fiction stays within the world that God created and abides by His laws.

There is some truth to this point you make. I do think all of our stories should abide by God’s spiritual laws. I do not think, however, it is Biblical to say all our stories have to follow the physical laws of the world God created. In fact, to make such a claim, I believe, contradicts the Bible.

God created the entire world out of nothing. If your point is true, then God violated this claim you are making. He created new physical laws than the world that existed before. Before Creation, all that was was God Himself. There were no laws of physics. God just created those arbitrarily because they pleased Him. What is more, He created us in HIS image, this includes His creativity and the will to make something out of nothing just like He did. We glorify Him we use our creativity and build new worlds in our imaginations.

Argument 8: Fantasy is a perversion of reality; a mixture of truth and deception.

I can’t disagree more. Again, our God is a God of fantasy and imagination. His creativity is boundless. He brought this reality into existence. Also, how are you defining reality? Is love real? What if we right a fantasy story about God’s love? Does it become perverted just because it takes place in a world where animals can talk? Hey, God made a donkey talk once now that I think about it…. Did God pervert reality when he broke that “law” and allowed a dumb animal to talk intelligently?

Argument 9: If the secular world is obsessed with something, that’s usually a pretty good indicator that it is either a) propagated by Satan, or b) not a threat to him.

This is generally true, but not necessarily true. The secular world is also obsessed with good things like love and companionship. Sure, the secular world is looking for these things in all the wrong places, and so continues to ache for them, but the desires are good because these desires were placed in all of us by God.

Argument 10: Fantasy can be addictive, and this is because there are demonic strongholds attached to fantasy creatures.

Pretty much anything can become an addiction. People could become addicted to the Kingdom Pen forum for example. That doesn’t mean the Kingdom Pen forum is inherently sinful. Additionally, many people don’t become addicted to fantasy, like myself for example.

That said, you make a good point that some people do seem to obsess a bit too much over LoTR or Narnia to an unhealthy extreme. Then again, I know a lot of Christians who obsess too much over one Christian teacher or another as well. Again, anything can become an idol.

Also, how do you know demonic strongholds are attached to fantasy creatures? Again, where is your Biblical support?

Argument 11: These points aren’t comfortable to think about, but we’re not here to be comfortable, but to fight.

Are you saying we should meditate on how fantasy creatures are dark? Before you were saying we should think on good things, but all these points you are bringing up are very dark, and disturbing. I’m sorry to say this, but it is your arguments that are more causing us to have to dwell on darkness much more than writing fantasy. Fantasy, after all, is what the entire world is. The entire world, you and me, were created from an act of fantasy. We were dreamed up in God’s imagination. God took something that was just fantasy, and brought it into reality.

We are created in His image, and so we too have this same desire to bring something from fantasy into reality. By doing so, we are glorifying God, not perverting His creation.

Fantasy makes me, and many others, meditate and focus more on God. The stories of Lewis and Tolkien have helped me to see God in a greater more fantastic glory. God is so complex, sometimes we need different descriptions of Him and His Love for us to help us better see His wonder and goodness. Fantasy can Help us meditate on God.

I’m not saying you are wrong in voicing your beliefs, but I think you are giving Satan and made-up creatures that don’t exist more power than they actually have, which I think is more dangerous. The imaginary monster under the bed can only harm you if you actually think it can. If you don’t believe there is a monster under your bed, then no harm can be done. You can sleep easy. If you think there really is a monster under the bed that can harm you, then you’re going to lose a lot of sleep.

Likewise, Christ freed us from sin when He died on the cross. We now have power over sin and Satan if we would but follow Him. The monster only exists if we let him.

Argument 12: Creating a made-up or fantasy world is equivalent to using our God-given imagination to create a world totally apart from Him and His laws. We are creating our own definition of right and wrong.

This just isn’t true. Sure, someone could do this in theory, but I doubt many KP writers are planning on doing this. Lewis and Tolkien certainly didn’t do this. Their stories were largely dealing with the struggle of good and evil, and not made-up versions either, but God’s definitions of good and evil. They took God’s spiritual truths and placed them in a world where they were more physical and tangible.

Argument 13: Using magic in our writing is sinful. Supernatural power can only come from God or Satan, the idea that it can be used for good or evil is a lie.

If this is true, then the Bible is sinful for including magic in it.

Also, do you see how you are contradicting yourself? You say that supernatural power can only form from God or Satan, but then you say that magic can only be used for evil. Are you saying that magic given by God is also evil?

Are the powers God gave Moses or the other prophets evil? Was Moses sinning when he parted the Red Sea or made his staff turn into a snake? Speaking of which, when he turned his staff into a snake and it ate the snakes of Pharaoh’s magicians, that was essentially a wizard duel. What is magic but supernatural power. The Bible is full of examples of good “magic” which came from God.
It is important to realize there is a difference between “magic” and “witchcraft”. In many fantasy stories, “magic” is more like a form of science or technology that anyone can use to manipulate nature given enough training and practice. There is nothing spiritual about it. That said, I’m not 100% convinced we can’t also write stories depicting the bad form of magic, “witchcraft”, so long as we are showing it to be bad, because this is precisely what the Bible has done.

And I think that covers your whole post. Wow! That was a lot! Haha! I hope I wasn’t too harsh, and again, let me know if I presented any of your views inaccurately.

To summarize all of that, I think you make some good points, and I know you are concerned for the KP community which I greatly appreciate, but a lot of the claims you make are not supported by the Bible, or even contradict the Bible, which I also find concerning.

I hope this helps clear up some of your concerns. 🙂

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Reagan Ramm.

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[Sarah Hoven]

@Daeus- I think I see what you mean. This is the only forum I’ve been on, so I’m still rather ignorant of social media protocol. Sorry. 🙂

@Kate- Oh, you believe magic is a natural law. I didn’t realize that. I believe it is spiritual. I believe that magic is supernatural power from the enemy, and I believe it is distinctly different from God’s power. I don’t believe that the terms “God’s power” and “magic” are interchangeable. I disagree with your definition, and you disagree with mine. Bummer…

Here is my answer. When we have our characters use “good magic” in our stories, we are taking something that is evil in this world and presenting it as unreal and good. You mentioned on the other thread that magic was okay as long as it was created by the god in the story. The problem is, there is a god -the god of this world- that has created a power called magic and given it to his followers. His name is Satan. When we portray God as creating and giving “magical powers”, we are not only changing His nature- we are mixing His nature with Satan’s. I believe that is wrong.

Okay… but I’m not writing a technical treatise on spiritual warfare. I’m writing to show light defeating darkness. If light and darkness can be represented and portrayed so easily and clearly using magic, why should we disregard such a powerful literary weapon?

Why? Because magic is darkness, and when we use “good magic” to defeat “bad magic” we are actually showing darkness defeating darkness. We blur the lines between good and evil to create shades of grey. Our culture has glorified magic and used the term “magic” much more loosely than it should, and this has left a deep imprint on our generation. It’s our job to expose this deception, not perpetuate it.

You said about the creatures I mentioned,

What are they but created creatures, created to people a world different than ours? They would still be created by a supreme creator, as in our world, regardless of what they look like, or what different characteristics they may have— extremely long life, for example, or pointed ears, or even immortality.

I have a problem with them because they aren’t really fantasy creatures. Sure, they are written about as fantasy, but they are based in reality and they are demonic. They are inherently evil, and it is wrong to portray them as good.

You are probably wondering why I keep insisting they are real, since most of them aren’t listed in the Bible. Well, in Genesis 6 the Bible says that the sons of God (fallen angels) came down to the daughters of men and married them. Their union produced an offspring, otherwise known as giants or nephillim, who continued to reproduce both with humans and animals. The Bible does not specify what form the fallen angels took, nor does it list all the different forms their offspring took. It just tells us there were giants in those days (before the flood) and afterwards (after the flood). Their infiltration into the human race is one of the reasons God had to send the flood. Noah was “perfect in his generations” meaning, in part, that his DNA had not been corrupted by union with fallen angels.

Did you ever wonder why God told Joshua to kill Canaanite women and children, and all their animals? I know I did. It’s because they were a mixed, perverted race of human, fallen angel, and in many cases, animal. Disgusting, right? There’s a reason why God expressly forbade the Israelites to “marry” animals; the nations around them were doing exactly that. The offspring of these forbidden relationships were twisted and perverted, and they often had supernatural power and/ or superhuman strength. After Israel conquered Canaan and killed off this perverted race, they didn’t have to deal with these beings. But in other parts of the world, like Germany, Greece, and Britain, these beings were able to live in peace and terrify the people around them. Most fantasy creatures stem from these creatures. I know this information is kind of shocking, but if you are going to use them you need to know what they really are.

Again, I would like to clarify that I believe we should write about darkness, but we should not confuse darkness with light by portraying evil creatures as good. Nor should we combat darkness with darkness. Since I believe these creatures are inherently evil and the use of any kind of magic is inherently evil, using them to portray something that is good blurs the lines between good and evil and leads to confusion. To me, this does not further the kingdom of God or truly portray His Light.

@Reagan- Thanks for taking the time to write such an exhaustive reply! 🙂 There seems to be a disconnect between what I am trying to say and what you think I am saying. We define terms differently. You define magic as supernatural power. I believe magic is supernatural power from Satan. You believe Moses and Pharaoh’s magicians were all wizards. I believe the magicians were wizards, and Moses was overcoming their magical powers by the power of God. You believe the prophets used magic. I believe God used His power through them. You believe that something evil can become good over time (the genetic fallacy remark). I believe that evil is evil. You believe that Satan is a “monster under the bed” who can’t hurt us if we ignore him. I believe that he can hurt us if we remain willfully ignorant of his tactics and continue to play in his realm. Since our two views are incompatible, I can see why my post didn’t make sense to you. Because of this fundamental difference in our beliefs, I don’t know how to make myself understood to you. I’m really sorry about that.

[Kate Flournoy]

@Sarah-h— Well, no… I don’t believe that exactly. I believe magic, quite simply, is God’s power whether or not it takes the form of a prophet-like being (Moses, for example— all @reaganramm’s points are completely valid in my opinion) or the form of a created natural system. Because even if it is a natural law thingy, it was still set in place by and so derives its power from God— a natural system in a fantasy world. I need to make that clear, because I absolutely horrified some friends by presenting this argument without making clear I was not talking about our world. 😛 It was easily cleared up, but still… 🙂

You’ve probably heard the terms ‘white magic’ and ‘black magic’— there’s only ‘black magic’ in our world because it’s Satanism and witchcraft, as it is also in a fantasy world. But ‘white magic’ is God’s power— we simply call it magic in a fantasy to make it easier for the reader to understand what is fighting what— light is fighting darkness.
I already said this several times, and I know what you’re saying (I just don’t agree) so I don’t think we can have any misunderstanding here.
In light of that and the fact that we still continue to disagree, it may be pointless to argue the matter further.

And in regards to creatures, I’m not getting what you’re saying. I understand your argument, but I fail to see how an elf, for example, has any connection whatsoever to a nephillim. An elf is a created… person, with stereotypically pointed ears, amazing agility,sharp senses, and extremely long life. I find nothing at all evil or inherently sinful in anything that defines an elf, or a unicorn, or a fairy dragon, or a fairy, or anything of that ilk.

I think we understand each other. I know we disagree. And unless you have further questions, maybe we should just leave it at that.
Thank you for a very interesting discussion! I’ve not had one so deep for a long while. 😀

And I love deep discussions. I’m sure you couldn’t tell. 😛

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

[Sarah Hoven]

@Kate- Ah, yes. I guess this is what you would call a stalemate. Thanks for letting me see your side of the debate. I do see where you’re coming from, although I still disagree. 🙂

About the elf thing, here’s a link to an article that basically sums up what I’m trying to say. Not that I agree with everything on the site, but I think this particular article is right.

[Kate Flournoy]

I read the article, and though again I do see your argument, I don’t agree. Tell me something I wasn’t expecting, hey? 😉

There’s one thing this hinges on, I think, and maybe I didn’t make this clear enough in my first posts. The difference is we are not talking about fairies and elves etc. as they may stand in our world. That’s an entirely different discussion.

We’re talking about a fantasy elf, which is nothing more in definition than a human, created being, really, with pointed ears and extremely long life. The name ‘elves’ comes from the simple fact that these fantasy creatures happen to have pointed ears; a characteristic they share with ‘elves’ as they exist (or supposedly exist) in our world.
You could call a fantasy elf a ‘person of longer than average earspan’ and it would be correct. 😛

The argument against fantasy ‘elves’ for the sake of their shared characteristics and possible original imaginative connection to ‘elves’ as they supposedly exist in our world is not logical. Even if they were originally inspired by elves in the real world, that’s not what they are now.
And to say that we need to ban them because of their possible imaginative origins and still be consistent, you have to ban a lot of other things too. Christmas, for example. (I think one of us may already have brought this up— if so, forgive me). Christmas was originally a pagan holiday upon which human sacrifices were made to celebrate I have forgotten what.
But that’s not what Christmas is today. Christmas today is a beautiful time of year when we gather with family and friends to celebrate the birth of our Savior.

Just because something started bad doesn’t mean it can’t redeem itself and become beautiful.

But I’m not too proud to declare stalemate. 😀

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

[Reagan Ramm]

@Reagan- Thanks for taking the time to write such an exhaustive reply! 🙂 There seems to be a disconnect between what I am trying to say and what you think I am saying. We define terms differently. You define magic as supernatural power. I believe magic is supernatural power from Satan. You believe Moses and Pharaoh’s magicians were all wizards. I believe the magicians were wizards, and Moses was overcoming their magical powers by the power of God. You believe the prophets used magic. I believe God used His power through them. You believe that something evil can become good over time (the genetic fallacy remark). I believe that evil is evil. You believe that Satan is a “monster under the bed” who can’t hurt us if we ignore him. I believe that he can hurt us if we remain willfully ignorant of his tactics and continue to play in his realm. Since our two views are incompatible, I can see why my post didn’t make sense to you. Because of this fundamental difference in our beliefs, I don’t know how to make myself understood to you. I’m really sorry about that.

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I wouldn’t actually call Moses a wizard or the power God gave the profits magic. I’m saying what see in fantasy novels is basically the equivalent to what Moses did.

For example, you’re saying all magic is power that comes from Satan. However, the good characters in stories who use “magic” are NOT getting their power from Satan. They are either getting their power from God (Like Moses), or “magic” is just another physical element of that world that can be manipulated, like how we can manipulate gravity to give us running water.

I also was not trying to say Satan is without power. I’m saying he has power if we give it to him, and like you say, “play in his realm.” You, however, think Satan’s realm includes all fantasy stories, but you didn’t give any Biblical evidence for this. So I don’t believe all fantasy novels fall into Satan’s realm.

Also, to reject the genetic fallacy is to reject logic, and if you are going to reject logic, then I guess you are right, there isn’t really any chance we can reach agreement. And again, I just don’t see any Biblical support for your claims. I also think it is possible for evil things and people to be redeemed. I’d like to think I am an example, as are all Christians. 🙂

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Reagan Ramm.

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[Daeus]

Well, I’m here. Don’t worry, I’m not going to replay all your former debates. I just decided to take a look at what had been happening here, and I decided that I should probably just ask a couple question for my own curiosity and maybe see if I can untangle a bit of misunderstanding I seem to detect. I enjoyed reading through this discussion. I should probably mention that I believe fantasy is an acceptable genre, but I find that Hope made some pretty good points, which, while not shaking my belief, showed me that we agree more than I though.

First of all, my questions:

@sarah-h You have stated that you think fantasy creatures are inherently evil. What about them makes them inherently evil. Is it the name they are identified by? Their bodily characteristics? Their (supposed) dependence from nephillim? (If so, do you believe ancestry can result in damnation? What about the, “A son shall not be punished for the sin of his father” verse?) Or is it their characteristics? Their nature to do evil? Personally, I think this last one is the correct answer. Isn’t evil defined as sin? Therefore something is only evil on account of its sinfulness.

Also, you explanation about how these creatures are descendants of nephillim fails to satisfy me. I still don’t understand where you are coming from. You said,

in Genesis 6 the Bible says that the sons of God (fallen angels) came down to the daughters of men

Yep, right on. The bible does say that. Then you say that they continued to reproduce. This may be a good assumption, but I don’t think the bible says straight on that this happened. What made you think they did? Are you even sure their descendants were the nephillim? The bible does say that the nephillim were around at that time, but I don’t think it says explicitly that they were the offspring of this intermixing. You also say

Noah was “perfect in his generations” meaning, in part, that his DNA had not been corrupted by union with fallen angels.

Why do you think it means that? It certainly doesn’t say that “perfect” means that. Is there another passage in the bible which makes you interpret this verse this way? Also, if the flood whipped out every living creature but Noah and his family, how did the nephillim survive? It would make the most sense if nephillim meant nothing more than a very tall person and that Noah was a medium sized person and that after the flood, his descendants displayed a large array of sizes, some small and some nephillim. You also said

Did you ever wonder why God told Joshua to kill Canaanite women and children, and all their animals? I know I did. It’s because they were a mixed, perverted race of human, fallen angel, and in many cases, animal.

I believe you think this because the many of the canaanites were descendants of nephillim. This however assumes that the nephilim were indeed the offspring of the deamon/women intermixing and that they were able to survive the flood (which seems unlikely). Even if everything you said is true, how do you know that the descendants of the nephillim turned into elves and werewolves and all those other things? Wouldn’t it make the most sense if the descendants of the nephillim (giants) stayed giants? It seems like you are stepping outside biblical history in creating such a system of demonic taxonomy. Extra biblical texts connect such creatures with the nephillim, but I am confident the bible does not. Why couldn’t such creatures just be pure demons (excuse the oxymoron)? The bible says that satan can appear as an angel of light. Why can’t he appear as an elf too?

Aye aye aye, that was a lot to say. I had more to say to, but I think I forgot most of it. That was all my questions though. I just had a few short comments which I forgot. Oh well. But @kate-flournoy, on why we might not use magic:
Hope had a point that there is no such thing as good magic. Of course if you define magic as “a supernatural power” then there can be good magic. But magic is generally perceived as a power you manipulate. Moses and others however, acted under the direction of God. They didn’t just use supernatural powers according to their own will. Anything beyond that in our world is evil
…However, in a fantasy world, I believe it is fine to have your (very allegorical god figure) grant his servants a power that they can use whenever they want, however they want, because power is not inherently bad, it is only bad if it comes from a bad source. Even if the power is granted to them by the god figure however, if they can use it however they want, it will have to have consequences for misuse (either that or it malfunctions automatically upon misuse).
…However, this creates another problem. People tend to be power hungry and sometimes treat fantasy as more real than it is. Some people really do try to move objects with their hands as in star wars for instance. You don’t want people to use turn your allegory element into an idol. That would be terrible!
The conclusion: I do not think magic is always evil in fantasy (though it certainly can be), but it is dangerous. This does not mean it should not be used, but it should be used with extreme caution and an understanding of its weak points. If you can handle this complicated balancing act, that’s fantastic. Just make extra sure you can.

This post is longer than I intended. I’m not even going to try to edit it. My apologies.

🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢

[Kate Flournoy]

Oh gracious, yes, @Daeus! Absolutely show what a crushing, dangerous responsibility it is! In fact I’ve used (and am going to use) it in many ways to showcase how power can corrupt, and why it’s incredibly dangerous to trust a fallible human being with too much of it.

Only a few of my villains toss it around like it’s nothing, and it never worked out too well for them. 😛

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

[Reagan Ramm]

Very good points Daeus!

Also, I saw this article and it made me chuckle considering this conversation. Apparently the Pope doesn’t consider God a magician either, and that He created the system of Evolution to account for life. Even if he is right, wouldn’t God still be a magician by his definition? Wouldn’t God still have had to wave His “magic wand” to create the system of Evolution? 😛

The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Reagan Ramm.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Reagan Ramm.

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[Kate Flournoy]

Oh the irony… and the Pope only succeeded in kicking the can a little further down the road. 😛

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

[Daeus]

Whoa there @Mr-pope, come join the forum and work out what you really believe. We’ll help you get rid of that bad logic mask. Bad arguments are like jokes, only they don’t make sense.

🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢

[Sarah Hoven]

Hi Daeus! I was wondering when you would join in. Just a quick question- you mentioned Hope twice in your post. Were you referring to Hope Schmidt? Or was that a typo?

What makes them inherently evil?
I believe they are inherently evil because of what they are in real life. And no, I don’t believe werewolves are related to the nephillim; a werewolf is a type of witch/warlock. I believe that it is wrong to portray something that is actually evil as being good in fantasy. I know there are many who do not share this belief.

Why do I make a connection between the fallen angels’ offspring and the nephillim? Why do I believe there were nephillim after the flood? Because of this verse:
“There were giants (nephillim) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children into them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
I believe this verse is saying that there were giants in the earth “in those days”, before the flood, and “also after that”, after the flood. I believe the phrase “mighty men which were of old, men of renown” is describing the giants referred to in the first part of the sentence. It would be very unbiblical to say that the nephillim survived the flood. I believe that the fallen angels had children with humans again, after the flood. Even today people in the occult have this type of interaction with demons.

Why couldn’t elves be demons?

Oh, sorry. I didn’t say that as clearly as I should have. I believe that ghosts are probably demonic manifestations, and I have a problem with fairy dragons because I believe magic is wrong. As for the other creatures listed in my first post, I believe they fall into one of three categories: one-hundred-percent human, but demon-possessed (a witch); half human and half demon (I used the term nephillim for all such offspring because that’s the term some Bible scholars use, but I can use another); or one-hundred-percent fallen angel or demon. I really don’t know which category elves, fairies, etc. fall into. They have been classified as elemental spirits, and people in the occult use elemental spirits in sorcery and stuff. Of course, people in the occult are dreadfully deceived, and their classifications can’t really be trusted. So I don’t know. I think the important thing is that we recognize that they are demonic.

[Kate Flournoy]

I appreciate your frankness, Sarah, but a lot of your arguments are either logically unsound or built very heavily on assumption. Thank you for sharing with me and taking the time to try and convince me, but I’m still going to have to say I disagree.

But we already know the reasons for that, and still aren’t agreeing, so I don’t think further discussion is going to help. 🙂

I declare stalemate. 😛

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

[Daeus]

Um … I meant you @Sarah-h. oooooops!

Thanks for those clarifications. I believe that there were giants after the flood, I’m just not convinced that some of those creatures you mentioned are their relatives.

I also don’t think you quite understood my question about what makes these evil creature inherently evil. You said that it is because they are evil in real life, but I was wondering what about them in real life made them evil. Let me give you an example of what I mean. Let us imagine that Person A thinks I am inherently evil because I am evil in real life. I would remain unconvinced since they didn’t point out anything evil about me that I could identify as evil. All they did was just say that I was evil and leave it there. It is circular reasoning. Now if they said I am evil because I am a writer and all writers are evil, then we would have something to discuss. Likewise if they said I was evil because I have brown hair, or my last name is Lamb, or I don’t drink coffee, then I could make an evaluation about myself and my alleged evilness. When however someone simply says that what is evil about me is me (the same line of reasoning you used), I can only rub my head in confusion. I’m sure you are identifying these creatures as evil for some evil characteristic of theirs, I just want to know which characteristic(s) you think it is. For more on this, see my first post.

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[Kate Flournoy]

Thanks Daeus— I was wondering that too, but didn’t quite know how to say it. You put it down very clearly. 🙂

INFP. kateeverythingwriting.wordpress.com

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