- This topic has 32 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 11 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
@Daeus no, you’re right. I agree. What I meant was I don’t understand it clearly enough to actually state for a certainty what it means, because as you pointed out there is information missing. Obviously it means what it says, but it didn’t give us the whole story, therefore there is that part of it I don’t understand.
@kate-flournoy Sorry. Yes, I see what you meant. That type of thing just irks me enough that I flew into a tirade without reading what you said carefully, for which I again repent in sackcloth and ashes.
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
Though I will point out that sometimes we think there’s a certain degree of mystery to a verse, when there really isn’t. There are legit mystery verses, but not all the ones we identify as such. This probably is a real legitimate mystery verse, but I don’t want to say so right off the bat.
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
@Daeus sackcloth may be a little extreme… XD
Good point. That’s true.@daeus @kate-flournoy Thanks guys! I’m glad we explored this topic. Daeus, I see what you mean about the passage in Hebrew talking about faith being credited to the patriarchs as righteousness. Very true. I forgot about that passage.
It’ll be a while before I’m actually going to write this story, but until then, I’ll give it prayer and study to make sure I’m on the right path.YA Fantasy Writer
Obsessive Character Namer
Find me at hisinstrumentblog.wordpress.com@his-instrument, that. . . can I call it mythology? That system seems to work pretty well, except for what Daeus pointed out. The reason given for the existence of ghosts is convincing. How much of a part will ghosts and the ideas behind them have in the story as a whole, or don’t you know yet?
You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@daeus @kate-flournoy @northerner
While I’m asking deep theological questions about salvation, here’s another one.
I was doing some reading about salvation in the Old Testament, and ran across Romans 4, which talked about justification through faith for the patriarchs, and justification through belief in Jesus Christ, called “the same faith,” for Gentiles. So we have salvation for those who were waiting for a Messiah. But what about Jews today? Where do they stand as far as salvation goes? I mean, I know it’s not for us to say who gets into Heaven, but I had always understood from Scripture that now, Jesus is the only way to heaven, and if Jews, who believe in God, have not accepted Jesus, then they do not have salvation. But if that is the case, then at what point in history did the crossover happen? At what point did salvation by the faith of the patriarchs become “not enough”?
And then there’s this other passage– Romans 11:25-32– about how “all Israel will be saved.”
Sorry, I know these questions no longer have anything to do with writing (maybe I should find a “theological questions” website), but I recognize that you all have studied different passages of Scripture than I have, come from different spiritual backgrounds than I do, and have had, in general, a different faith experience, so if you could offer me whatever insight you have, I would be very appreciative.YA Fantasy Writer
Obsessive Character Namer
Find me at hisinstrumentblog.wordpress.comBut if that is the case, then at what point in history did the crossover happen? At what point did salvation by the faith of the patriarchs become “not enough”?
@His-Instrument when the Messiah came and they rejected Him. The justification of faith was not only faith that God exists and is powerful, but faith that God would keep His promise and send a Savior for His people, and the Savior would be the only way. Otherwise, faith is meaningless. What were they believing in, if not a promise? And when the promise was fulfilled and they rejected it, what did they reject but faith? Yes, they continued their belief in God, but if you believe in God yet reject the fulfillment His promises, what empty faith is that?I haven’t studied this in depth, but I think that’s pretty clear. I’m open to suggestions though.
@His-instrument I like to talk about these things as well as writing, though I’m not necessarily going to be right. That said, my pastor’s preaching through Exodus now (after three years on 1st Corinthians), and my father is about to get a PhD. in Old Testament theology (please do not ask what his dissertation is about. . . thanks), so I kind of know what I’m talking about. Oh, and in case it happens to be germane to the discussion, I’m also a Dispensationalist.
I think when the Jews rejected Jesus, during the Passion Week, with plotting to have Him arrested and demanding He be crucified and so on, by rejecting Him they rejected their chance at salvation (not for all of them for all time, but those who said “Crucify” obviously weren’t accepting His Gospel). Since what had come before were types and shadows and the patriarchs were putting their hope in things still future, once that future Lamb was revealed, something had to change. You’re shifting your focus from future tense to present. If you miss what’s standing right in front of you and instead keep looking to the future, you’re now putting your faith in something not quite right. So there’s a problem.
Not the Church does not replace Israel. They’re two separate things. The Jews no longer worship God rightly according to the Law, though; first, no Temple. That’s a big problem. No Temple: no sacrifices in the temple according to the Law. No sacrifices in the temple according to the Law: no atonement. No atonement: well, you can guess where that goes. Secondly, the Jews have lost their focus. Instead of worshipping God with their heart, they’re following their traditions. Traditions have in a way replaced God. Some practicing Jews are atheists. If you put your faith in works, you’ve gone the wrong path again.But if that is the case, then at what point in history did the crossover happen? At what point did salvation by the faith of the patriarchs become “not enough”?
At the coming of the Messiah.
I’m not sure about the “all Israel will be saved” part. Most likely it means what it says. I can ask my father — he’s probably written a paper on that before.
You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@his-instrument Yeah, I’d pretty much agree with Kate. One other point I’d make is that the new testament ushered in the new covenant and a covenant is two sided, so it includes God. Thus, I’d say in the new testament era, God’s is saving people through his new covenant only, that is, directly through Jesus. So even if a Jew didn’t know about Jesus but still hoped in a coming messiah, that wouldn’t be saving faith. In other words, I think in these days anyone who will be saved, God will cause them to hear the gospel at some point in their lives, because that’s his covenant — the way he works.
As for the “all Israel will be saved” passage, I’m not quite positive what it refers to at the moment. It could mean Israel in the new testament sense, but it may also mean that literally all Israel will be saved, though if you were to say all Israelites ever, I think that would contradict the rest of the passage. It seems it would be at some later point in history for the Israelites at that time. There might be something in Revelation that talks about that, but I’m basing that off a really vague memory.
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
@daeus @kate-flournoy @northerner
Not only do you all have fantastic wisdom, but you are also incredibly prompt.
Yes, I understand what you mean about the crossover point being when the Jews rejected Jesus. But I’ve always wondered, what about the Jews who were nowhere near Jerusalem? Who maybe never met Jesus? Who lived in other lands, and worshipped God, and didn’t know anything about Jesus? There had to be a crossover point for the innocent, too, didn’t there? Because although those who rejected Jesus were Jews, they weren’t all the Jews. You know what I’m saying? I guess I’m imagining this type of scenario–
There’s a Jewish guy who just wasn’t in the area where Jesus was, and didn’t ever have the opportunity to confirm a faith in Him. He follows God’s commands all his life, sacrificing appropriately, worshipping with all his heart, etc. And then, in 34 A.D., before ever hearing about Jesus, he dies. What happens to him? I cannot think that God would send him to Hell, since he was following God. (Then again, I’ve always had trouble with the concept that innocent people all around the world are dying and not being saved every day because they have never heard the name of Jesus.) Do you suppose God treats scenarios like this on a case-by-case basis?
And Northerner, by the way, what is a Dispensationalist?YA Fantasy Writer
Obsessive Character Namer
Find me at hisinstrumentblog.wordpress.com@his-instrument A guy who dies ad 34? You know, I’m not positive about that. I can’t think of any reason it would be impossible for him to be saved under the old covenant off the top of my head, but I kinda doubt it. I guess my reasoning is that if God wanted a jew saved, he could get them to hear about Jesus. So, if God’s not in a quandary, why would he mess with two covenants at once? I suspect the bible has an answer somewhere, but I’m afraid I don’t know it.
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
The idea about innocent people dying ties into the subject about the ad 34 guy prettu well. What it all comes down to is a belief in God’s sovereignty. As daeus said God would probably find a way to save him. Think about the dudes who followed John the Baptists teachings in Acts (I forget the chapter). God found a way to yeach them what they needed to know. Also, fogive my lack of spell check.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
Acts 19
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
All Israel shall be saved. That is in the general sense. Now Israel doesn’t recognize jesus. But soon they will, in general, recognize him. This doesn’t mean all indoviduals. This is all IMO BTW
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.