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@Daeus, I have to disagree about the ending. It had to be a miracle. You see, people aren’t truly converted by force of arms, or, in most cases, by arguments. It has to be God who converts them. So by beginning the story with Michael’s miracle, and ending it with one for the four other characters (I’m trying not to spoil it), it actually reinforces the theme, and doesn’t weaken it.
@Kate-Flournoy, the symbolism is one of the best parts. It’s really hard to write a book where every little thing is symbolic of something else without either overdoing it, stretching things past belief, or turning it into a predictable allegory. Chesterton somehow managed to avoid all those.
@Gabriellemassman, TMWWT is good too, though most people miss the subtitle and therefore miss most of what’s going on.You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@northerner I don’t remember a miracle at the beginning of the story, but oh well.
I agree that reason isn’t what brings about a conversion, but, for one, just because reason isn’t the primary cause of a person’s salvation isn’t reason, doesn’t mean it isn’t a cause and an important one.
I don’t think there was anything wrong with the ending since miracles are real, but I do think it was a cheap escape. (John 20:29 “…Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”) I just see it from the atheist’s perspective and think, “If I were an atheist, I would read this and say, ‘Well that was a nice ending. If I ever encounter a miracle like that, I’ll believe too.'”
Miracles are, of course, an essential part of the gospel, but the key to belief in them is understanding the nature of God. It is not necessary to see a miracle to believe Jesus rose from the dead. I don’t think it is necessary to bring in something outside of normal human experience in order to show people the nature of God. That can be seen in our everyday lives.
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@kate-flournoy This relates to what was mentioned in the theme course about how you want to set yourself up against the very best arguments against your message you can find. You want to place yourself and the position of least advantage in order to show that your position is true.
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@Daeus yes, you have a point. Looking at it from that angle, and concentrating on the miracle itself rather than the allegory, I agree. If you had said that before I read it I probably would have been annoyed, but as it was I hardly even noticed.
And I just copied and pasted the above reply into my ‘THEME’ folder. 😀
@GabrielleMassman I’m definitely planning to read The Man Who Was Thursday. It sounds fascinating.@northerner I actually missed the subtitle until I finished the book. Seeing it as a nightmare does give the story an interesting spin, especially with the ending.
@kate-flournoy You definitely should!I haven’t read any G. K. Chesterton novels yet, but we did listen to all of The Innocence of Father Brown while on holiday. Now that is fun. Extremely clever. Not all of the stories are funny (there are dead bodies about), but they way they are told makes it impossible to not laugh.
And then there are little gems of thought about man and God.@anna-brie, one of the things I like about Chesterton’s detective stories (he had more of them than just the forty-nine or so about Father Brown) is that he doesn’t view a corpse as a collection of scientific things and maybe a clue or two, the way Holmes seems to. He keeps the right idea of it being a human being, a destroyed image of God, and that’s what makes it so dreadful.
“Blood is a beautiful thing; that is why it is kept concealed.”
You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@northener That’s a great point. Also talking about death is one of the best ways of talking about life. This kind of detective story is a great place to get into deep things.
@GabrielleMassman @Northerner
I JUST FINISHED TMWWT AND I AM HYPERVENTILATING. Okay, not really, but I am so…so…Gah! I don’t know. It was insane. It was awesome. I LOVED IT! I haven’t read any other Chesterson novels, or a ton of theologically deep books in general, (😁😁) so I don’t really have a comparison, but that was seriously one of the best books I have ever read. I was wracking my brains the whole second half. What is going on?! I know there is some sort of symbolism here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it! I’ve been raving incoherently to my family for the last hour and my brother finally told me to let it out on KP and have mercy on him and my sister, so that’s what I’m doing. 😉 (Obviously, I suppose.) Definitely a book where it’s impossible to notice everything on the first or even second read-through. All right, I’m calm, I’m cool. *deep breath* And you are absolutely right @GabrielleMassman, the synopsis-thingy doesn’t do it a justice.
@Kate-Flournoy I am sorry your thread had to serve as a vent for my feelings. XD I recommend The Man Who was Thursday a thousand times, and I am now excited to try more Chesterson. Next up, The Ball and the Cross!!! 😀*is probably geeking out about something*
@GracieGirl Whoa. Must be good. XD ‘Kay, READ THE BALL AND THE CROSS NOW! It’s goooood.
@Emma-Flournoy I get right on it! If it’s half as good as TMWWT I’m sure I’ll love it
*is probably geeking out about something*
@GracieGirl I’m sure. 😀 😀
@Graciegirl, TMWWT is tough for a first book of Chesterton’s to read. I’m impressed.
As to what it means, some speculate it’s about the problem of evil, what with so many references to the book of Job, and Syme saying at the end. . . well, what he says, anyway, when Gregory comes back. (I’m trying not to spoil it.) There are lots of other explanations given, but that seems to be the most common. Of course, there’s also the fact that it is a nightmare, so there will always be parts of it that make your head explode and make “I know this means something but I don’t know what” a legitimate reaction.
@Daeus, you’ll notice that there’s a whole chapter of argument, and that by the time we get to Turnbull’s dream he’s changed his mind a lot. So I don’t think Chesterton is saying argument is unimportant when it comes to conversion.You will draw water joyfully from the springs of salvation. (Isaiah 12:3)
@Northerner To be fair, this is my second try at TMWWT. I had a go at it when I was…..14-ish, I think. But it was a struggle and I was so busy at the time that I never made it past Syme’s ‘election’. I’ve honestly never read or studied the book of Job, so I’m afraid any references to it in TMWWT flew over my head. I did notice several smaller symbols, like how the man in the dark room equipped the inspectors with the means to be evil or pretend to be anyways. Or how each ‘day’ (besides Sunday, of course) represented different views people take on God. I think the part I had the most trouble with was Monday, the Secretary. I just had a really hard time trying to understand his thinking. The others’ thoughts on Sunday were rather straight forward, but Monday’s is still stretching my brain. I really need to go back and read the scene with Gregory at the end again. I was so frazzled by the end I just wanted to figure out what happened and wait to see what they meant by all they said later. XD
Okay, I think that was obscure enough that no one who hasn’t read it will get any spoilers….. 😐*is probably geeking out about something*
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