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Okay, I have another religion related question. This is a basic and age old one, but still one a lot of people (myself included) struggle with. Why did God give us free will? Of course, there’s the answer that He did it so we could freely choose to love Him back because real love doesn’t coerce or force to love back. But then, why would God even give us a choice if He knows what’s best for us and that not choosing Him would lead to death? Why not just let us live in communion with Him in ignorance? I’m probably 100% wrong about this, but I think living in ignorance would be better than many actively rejecting God and being separated from Him. Another question I have for y’all that’s more personal is if you’ve ever gone through a stage in your faith journey where you start questioning/doubting what you’ve been taught. Feel free to not answer this question though.
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@linus-smallprint, @ellette-giselle, @anyone else"No! Monkeys should have pets, all monkeys should have pets!"
Why not just let us live in communion with Him in ignorance? I’m probably 100% wrong about this, but I think living in ignorance would be better than many actively rejecting God and being separated from Him.
I’ll give my best classical response, then my personally preferred answer.
Essentially as you’ve already said, there is victory and therefore more good in us choosing good over evil, otherwise, we are simply robots or zombies that follow God’s every whim. What you’re suggesting though is that God doesn’t necessarily take our will away, but rather our knowledge of good and evil gained in the Garden to use our will. So the real question is could we all have been better off in the Garden forever? You’re absolutely right that there are so many souls that misuse their will, only to bring condemnation upon themselves, so obviously at least for them it would be a net positive to never have had the chance, and to simply have the bliss of ignorance. Christ Himself says this about Judas, or more specifically He said that he would be better off having never been born at all.
One solution I’ve heard is essentially that since God is seeking to maximize good, then this universe we’re in is the maximal outcome, where the most people accept Him on an intentional level beyond innocence, and the least are left to suffer for their sins. I think this answer works in theory, but when we look at the world around us, we have to ask ourselves if this really is the most optimal outcome. If this is the path we take though, I don’t think there’s much else we can say, and simply accept that this really is the most optimal timeline.
To give my own take, I would ask what is God’s ultimate goal here anyway? By my understanding, it’s “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”. God loves us, and what He ultimately wants is for us to find the highest degree of joy, which intrinsically only comes from knowing the good from the evil, and choosing the good. He can let us remain ignorant, and there could be a degree of contentment there, but because we would know no pain we would know no pleasure, happiness, or joy. So it becomes a gamble, the chance for the highest degree of joy, but we have to come to this earth, where we might instead end up choosing the ultimate sorrow.
However, what I think should be noted is that those who don’t choose God get what they want. I love the quote from Brad Wilcox “Heaven won’t be heaven for those who do not choose to be heavenly.” For those who choose another way, God could try to bring them to His presence where the highest joy lies, but they would hate every second of it, screaming “Get me out of here”, and that is the path they choose, to live apart from God. They are the most happy the can be in that state, and God loved them enough to let them take that path, just as the Prodigal loved his son enough to let him leave with his inheritance, even if he never returned. Would they be better off in innocence? Perhaps, but that is the choice we all made by coming here, to learn and grow so that we might let God turn us into something far greater than we can imagine.
if you’ve ever gone through a stage in your faith journey where you start questioning/doubting what you’ve been taught.
I think I’ve occasionally pondered my doubts in the past, but never seriously. There was this one time when some pretty traumatic stuff happened within my family that forced me into a paradigm shift, and I questioned if I should just go all the way with the shift into believing nothing at all, but I held to what I did know ultimately.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Remember, humanity wasn’t created for ourselves. We where created to bring glory and honor to God, and eventually be his bride.
Us humans where made in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:26-27), and “the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” (Gen 2:18). That “good” could possibly be translated best or pleasant. Is it possibly that it’s not good, best, pleasant for God, the one whose likeness we are made in, to be alone?
But God has the thousands of angels that do what he wants. He isn’t alone. . . right?
Adam had the animals. He got to name them whatever he wanted to, and yet “It is not good that the man should be alone”
Romans 5:14
If you had the power to force someone to be your spouse, would you? God could do it, and it might be for humanities “best”, but is that really what he wants?
Maybe he is seeking for a people who will love him for who he is.
You will love what you spend time with.
Interesting. It does seem like there’s more reward in suffering and still choosing good and God, so pain and hardship does have that benefit. Additionally, when you look at the countries around the world, it seems that all the poorer, suffering countries remain religious. It doesn’t make sense really, after all these people are the ones facing hardships daily, wouldn’t it make the most sense to turn on whatever religion and god they believe in?
You mentioned that Jesus said it would be better for Judas never to have been born, so that leads to another question. Why does God create people that He knows will end up rejecting Him and going to hell? Won’t that cause Himself unnecessary pain and pain for the person created?That’s true. It wouldn’t be fair to God to know that the people He created were only programmed to choose Him and never choose anything else.
"No! Monkeys should have pets, all monkeys should have pets!"
It doesn’t make sense really, after all these people are the ones facing hardships daily, wouldn’t it make the most sense to turn on whatever religion and god they believe in?
Very true, this is something we see repeatedly. Those who go through the worst in life often end up being the most drawn towards God. Part of it is because they have nothing else to turn to. Christ is the way, and there is no other way that we might find the Father. When they see plainly that there is nothing else, and they are sufficiently brought low to the depths of humility, they can be changed by Him, and they begin to be the most grateful for life, instead of those who can indulge in worldly pleasures without being forced to grow.
You mentioned that Jesus said it would be better for Judas never to have been born, so that leads to another question. Why does God create people that He knows will end up rejecting Him and going to hell? Won’t that cause Himself unnecessary pain and pain for the person created?
This is one of the problems I have with classical theism. If this is the reality, then I personally feel that it would be both more just and more merciful for God to annihilate souls, instead of tormenting them. This can work from a Nicene perspective, but it’s a less popular take. I think the best answer here from a Nicene perspective that believes in an eternal hell, is essentially just that God’s ways are not our ways, and He favors cosmic justice over individual justice. So while it would have been better for Judas not to be born on an individual level, his betrayal is necessary for the greater cosmic good, and because of his betrayal, it is also a greater cosmic good that he faces eternal torment.
Personally, I can’t accept this view of God, because it feels too heartless to me, but perhaps it’s true. It may not be the only explanation outside of annihilationism within classical theism, but it’s the best one I’ve heard, I should clarify that point that I’m not claiming that these are the only options, though they are the only ones I see right now.
So for my own real take, I don’t support annihilationism, instead, I go clear to the opposite side of the spectrum to resolve the issue. I believe in a pre-mortal existence, where we all choose to come to this earth to be tried and tested. God loves us all, and provides a way for us to come to this earth to learn and grow and draw closer to Him, and we all of our own free will agreed to that plan to come to this earth. Judas in this case was not sent to earth for the purpose of being the betrayer, that’s just what he ultimately chose, and Christ knew his heart. It would have been a greater good for Judas to have never been born because of what he chose, but that doesn’t mean he lacked the potential to be faithful to the end.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
When they see plainly that there is nothing else, and they are sufficiently brought low to the depths of humility, they can be changed by Him, and they begin to be the most grateful for life, instead of those who can indulge in worldly pleasures without being forced to grow.
Exactly, which is a huge problem in first world countries and more advanced cultures.
So for my own real take, I don’t support annihilationism, instead, I go clear to the opposite side of the spectrum to resolve the issue. I believe in a pre-mortal existence, where we all choose to come to this earth to be tried and tested. God loves us all, and provides a way for us to come to this earth to learn and grow and draw closer to Him, and we all of our own free will agreed to that plan to come to this earth. Judas in this case was not sent to earth for the purpose of being the betrayer, that’s just what he ultimately chose, and Christ knew his heart. It would have been a greater good for Judas to have never been born because of what he chose, but that doesn’t mean he lacked the potential to be faithful to the end.
That is true, he did have that point in between after the betrayal and before his death to repent. I guess we’ll never really know for sure why God allows us to go to hell. After all, as Judith said in her book, not even humans can a know for sure what is on other humans hearts, let alone the God of the Universes’ mind. Maybe people that die and face God at the end are given one last chance to choose, or maybe not. It’s a little frustrating not knowing these things sometimes.
"No! Monkeys should have pets, all monkeys should have pets!"
That is true, he did have that point in between after the betrayal and before his death to repent. I guess we’ll never really know for sure why God allows us to go to hell. After all, as Judith said in her book, not even humans can a know for sure what is on other humans hearts, let alone the God of the Universes’ mind. Maybe people that die and face God at the end are given one last chance to choose, or maybe not. It’s a little frustrating not knowing these things sometimes.
Well if you ask me it’s not so much that hell is a punishment for sin as much as the state you choose to exist in. If God forced you into His presence, it would be worse than hell, and so He loves you enough to let you live outside of His presence, despite knowing you’d be happier if you chose Him instead. He’s letting you decide who you want to ultimately be, and therefore where you’ll be the happiest.
You’re absolutely right though, we simply don’t know all things, and shouldn’t act like we do, we can only trust in Him.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Well if you ask me it’s not so much that hell is a punishment for sin as much as the state you choose to exist in.
Well, people who choose to live apart from God on earth are kind of living a personal hell, right?
Well if you ask me it’s not so much that hell is a punishment for sin as much as the state you choose to exist in. If God forced you into His presence, it would be worse than hell, and so He loves you enough to let you live outside of His presence, despite knowing you’d be happier if you chose Him instead.
How can someone get to the point where having the ultimate good would be worse for them than hell?
"No! Monkeys should have pets, all monkeys should have pets!"
Well, people who choose to live apart from God on earth are kind of living a personal hell, right?
Right, it’s self-inflicted. It’s choosing to be something lesser than you could be, which leads to sorrow.
How can someone get to the point where having the ultimate good would be worse for them than hell?
Because of who they chose to be. Heaven won’t be heaven to those who do not choose to be heavenly. To put it into perspective, there’s a story Brad Wilcox talked about: A young man made bad choices throughout his life, and only continued to choose wrong. Brad talked with the boy’s father about getting him into a youth camp, knowing the good it does. Once they put him into the program, however, he called the first day saying “get me out of here.” The camp was nothing but good, yet the young man hated every moment of it. Similarly, the unrepentant sinner if forced into the gates of heaven will scream “get me out of here” despite Christ begging them to use his atonement and change.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Another question I have for y’all that’s more personal is if you’ve ever gone through a stage in your faith journey where you start questioning/doubting what you’ve been taught. Feel free to not answer this question though.
When I was about fourteen, (2ish years ago), out of nowhere —or what it seemed—I started having doubts about everything. Questions like the ones you’ve asked on here would plague me for days, and I’d cycle through the answers over and over again. I struggled with many different doubts, but the main ones mostly revolved around if Jesus was truly God’s Son. I had been a believer since I was little, but all of a sudden my faith was so . . . messed up. I didn’t know if anything was true anymore. I wanted it to be true. But no matter how hard I tried to “solve” the doubt and questions, I was never left with peace. There was always this state of anxiety and somewhat-depression floating in the back of my mind. Sometimes I would just go in the shower or in another room, and as soon as I was away from my family, I would start crying because I felt so bad.
This “anxiety” also manifested itself in a different way—several, actually, but mostly these two. I would wonder if things I was doing were “morally right”. For example, a show that I’d been watching with my family. I got it into my head—for whatever minor reasons (my mom thought it was fine)—that I shouldn’t watch it. And so I couldn’t finish the season. I read a verse in the New Testament that talked about not doing anything if you had doubts about it. (For context, it was talking about eating meat offered to idols.) Like my doubts, this verse became a huge source of anxiety to me. I would wonder if anything I was doing was wrong because I had a thought for a second that I shouldn’t do it. (And of course, my anxiety never failed to remind me that these thoughts could be convictions from God.)
I don’t know for sure if this relates to what you’re going through. But some of the questions you’ve asked on here kind of reminded me of myself when I was questioning everything.
At some point in all this, I don’t know exactly how—probably googling Christian doubts online?—but I connected my new spiral with OCD. Different (but similar) to anxiety, OCD is essentially… worries, without the ability to stop them.
OCD runs in my family. I myself had even had a bout with it when I was maybe eight or so—but that time, my thoughts had revolved around lying (I always tried to tell the truth, to the point where I couldn’t even answer others and just said “maybe, maybe not.”)
The thing was, I had thought my OCD was over. I was past that. But all this new doubt and anxiety proved that, in fact, I still had it. OCD was a part of me—not just something I’d been through—that apparently came in waves. Some seasons it’d be bad. Some times I barely gave those thoughts attention. But it would never really be gone.
The reason that knowing I had OCD helped me (after learning more about it) is because the main power of OCD is … when you think the thoughts are coming from you.
A normal person has the ability to brush away a thought without truly dwelling on it. A person with OCD can have a really hard time with this (as you no doubt see from my post). But the thing is, the thoughts aren’t you. They only have the power to affect you if you let them. And once you know that the reason they’re coming and sticking to you is because of OCD, they lose some of their power.
I won’t get into all the details of how I started healing after that, unless this actually resonated with you and you think you might have OCD too. (Sorry for this loooooong post, by the way.) Even if it’s just doubt you’re struggling with, I want to tell you that I get it. I’ve thought about all these questions. And God knows the answers better than any of us ever will—no matter how much study or discussion we do on them—until maybe heaven. And even then I’m sure He’ll have a better understanding.
However, reading articles, devotionals, or books on doubt for Christians can be helpful. Some Bible stories where Jesus deals with doubt are A) when Peter tries to walk on water, and Jesus saves him from drowning, B) When the man who wants Jesus to heal his son cries out, “I do believe, but help my unbelief.” And C) when He sends the disciples—all of them!—out with the Great Commission, even though literally like two lines before, it says that some disciples still doubted Him. They’re all worth studying.
Something really amazing happened to me while I was dealing with all that. One night, I was just so miserable, worn out by arguing with myself. Unsure what was true. I prayed, “God, please, just show me that you’re there.” When I opened my Bible, my eyes fell to Acts 2:17-18, which actually quotes a Psalm.
King David said this about him:
‘I see that the Lord is always with me.
I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.
26 No wonder my heart is glad,
and my tongue shouts his praises!
My body rests in hope.
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead[a]
or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
28 You have shown me the way of life,
and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’[b]God has room for your questions. I encourage you to pray to Him about them. He’s here for you, even though you might feel far from Him right now. And I’m here for you if you ever want to talk.
Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again. ~ C.S. Lewis
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