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Okay y’all…I know we’ve had a lot of discussions here on KP about villains, and one thing I’ve noticed a lot of us talk about is having our villains have a spark of goodness in them.
And much as I normally agree…I’ve run into a bit of a problem/question.
In complete honesty…does every “good villain” need to have at least something good/likeable about them?
Or…is it okay to have a villain that is so consumed by darkness that the light is not found in them?
I was just thinking about my main villain in my WWII series, of which I can’t find a single spark of goodness in, and I was wondering if that was bad or if that was really okay.
Just a question…so how about we discuss it?
I’m gonna tag a few Keepers. 😉
@godlyfantasy12. @elishavet-pidyon. @esther-c. @mineralizedwritings. @whalekeeper. @booksbyjayna. @otherworldlyhistorian. @folith-feolin. @felicity. @lightoverdarkness6. @anyone-else-that-wants-to-join-this-discussion.@freedomwriter76
Im going to say they kind of need a spark of goodness in them in a twisted way
By this I mean they have to have a spark of goodness in them from the villains perspective. What I mean is people don’t do things without justification.
I mean example wise you can look at someone like Sauron (one of the most classic epitome of evil trope, villains) Sauron legitimately thinks that what he is doing with the one ring and taking over middle earth is good because it is the only way to fix the pain and suffering (is he right, probably not)
I mean in a more world war 2 esque example and use Adolf Hitler. Most (maybe all) historians think that Hitler did not believe he was a bad person. In fact Hitler probably believed he was one of the most brilliant people ever and that he was going to follow the principles of Social Darwinism and actually advance the human race. (in case you didn’t know Hitler was the leader of Germany in WWII and commuted genociede against the Jews. He is also know as one of the worst people to ever exist and was not a good person in any shape or form)
what I’m saying is no they don’t have to be likable (see Commodus from the move Gladiator (one of the greatest villains in cinematic history)) but in their mind they have to believe that they are good and have justification for their actions.
I typed that a bit fast so be where of spelling mistakes
@freedomwriter76
Interesting question, and I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I think we want to teach our readers something through all our characters, not the least being the villains. Because of this we often want our reader to sympathize with the villain a little, but this isn’t always what’s needed. It depends on what role your villain plays.
Also, it is worth noting that all things begin with the opportunity to live unto Good or Bad. Things often begin pure, but evil – sin – corrupts. Look at this world. Or even our adversary, satan, who, although there is no good in him, began as a literal angel of light. We all have a choice to make. There doesn’t have to be any good left in your villain; there’s no good in sin anyway.
Now for examples….
Fiction:
The White Witch. (The Lion the Which and the Wardrobe) She is the epitome of evil and is a form of sin/satan.
Sauron. (Lord of the Rings) Is a deceitful servant of evil from his beginning, becoming the master of Mordor and the Lord of the Ring. The embodiment of evil and a form of spiritual darkness in this world.
Morbin Blackhawk. (Green Ember) The prey lord of the High Bleaks, he is the master of Garten and the ultimate hater of anything good. He plays a role of being the “unconquerable evil” that is overcome by those who are not afraid to stand against evil.
And there are many real life examples in history and even in our day. Fallen humanity has a habit of destroying itself. We all make choices to deny Good or Bad, and in the end we become what we choose to entertain in our lives.
Hope that ramble helps! 🙂
You have listened to fears, child. Come, let me breathe on you... Are you brave again? -Aslan
@freedomwriter76
well, I believe you have to look at it from this viewpoint-
Not every villain has to be, nor needs to be redeemed, but every villain has had a glimmer of good in them at some point.
Because villains are not born, they are made.
Imo no one is born coherently evil, and so sometime as a child, or while growing up their heart became so full of hate, anger and bitterness that they turned into who they are now.
So now, when we look at them, we cannot see the goodness.
And that’s okay.
That doesn’t make us bad people for writing a villain like that.
But it doesn’t mean they never had that spark of good. Because they did. At some point in time, they did.
Idk if you’ve ever seen Avatar: The Last Airbender, but in that show there are two siblings, Zuko and Azula, and their pasts are shown in flashbacks.
In it Azula, as a child is…Crazy, manipulative, seemingly a monster.
But she’s just a child. And in truth, her behavior is brought on because of her father and grandfather, who are vicious and she believes that she must bend to this, instead of trying to maintain her goodness like her brother does.
In the end? She goes insane.
It seems there was never even an ounce of goodness in her, ever.
But again, villains are not born, they’re made.
And Azula was made, even as a child, to make sure she showed herself to be what she had to be.
Even if it was a monster.
I hope this helps but idk…
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@elishavet-pidyon. @folith-feolin. Thanks y’all! 😊 Very eye-opening, thank you!
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@godlyfantasy12. That makes sooo much sense, and I wholeheartedly agree!!! It’s so sad to think about, but it’s so true!
That’s why I get sad when I think about writing the WWI book idea with a younger Felix and Hans…😭😭😭
@freedomwriter76
@elishavet-pidyon @godlyfantasy12 and @folith-feolin have all made some great points.I agree with what they’re saying. Most if not all good villains think that what they are doing is right. I don’t think that anybody goes out and does something wrong just to do something wrong. We all have some kind of intent behind our actions, even if we’re not aware of it.
Though we are all born with a sin nature, nobody is “born a villain.” They become one. So if you’re searching your villain’s history and his personality, trying to find some spark of goodness and can’t, I think that’s okay. As long as you show that he thinks he is doing the right thing.
Take Judas Iscariot from the Bible, for example. He was probably a good man, but because of his sin nature and his lusts, he betrayed Jesus, which we see that he regrets later. (Speaking of, I am so mad at The Chosen for making us like Judas because we all know what he’s going to do later on! 😠😅 Anywho…) While the Bible doesn’t clearly tell us the complete intent behind Judas’ actions, I think it is safe to assume that Judas did what he did for someone’s benefit. Probably his own.
(Side note: I find it amazing how Jesus still showed him love and compassion, despite knowing what Judas was going to do. Actually, Jesus had Judas sit at the place of honor beside him. And, I heard from somewhere, that the “sop” that Jesus dipped and gave to him, was given to the guest of honor. Plus, when Judas led the soldiers to Jesus in the garden, Jesus called him Friend. Isn’t our Savior so amazing? ❤️)
Pardon the random rant. XD
Anyway, back on the topic of villains.
Even if you don’t ever see or find one drop of goodness in your villain, it could still be somewhere in them, though it may not be clearly evident. But, I’m not sure. 🤷🏻♀️
In our world, it may seem like the darkness envelopes the light, diffusing it. But it’s the other way around! Christ’s light destroys darkness! When there is darkness in our stories, we have to remember that it’s only there to make the light shine even brighter!
I hope that helped! 😀
Write what should not be forgotten. — Isabel Allende
@esther-c exactly. Can’t be mad at the chosen though because it’s just the truth probably! In reality, Jesus loved him even. It’s heartbreaking.
I loved Judas even before the chosen so it really breaks my heart. I wish he could’ve found forgiveness in the end before he…you know
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSeb@freedomwriter76
Good topic!
Imo, every story needs a good mix. I think there are some people who just continue evil paths. I would show an inner conflict, or one from the past though. Maybe they think about how ten years ago they questioned their actions, but didn’t back out. Maybe they are glad they didn’t back out idk. It just shows that they are human, because I think most humans would at one point question their actions, even if they shove the question back inside and continue. I mean if the villain is mentally ill, they might not. But I think most people would.
"And so I left this world just as I had entered it. Confused."
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@mineralizedwritings. @esther-c. Thanks, y’all!!! Again, very eye-opening, thanks!!! 💕💕💕
(Note: This is probably going to be long. XD)
I’m going to take a theological approach to this at the beginning. Scripture says two things on the state of man: (1) Man was created in the image of God, as seen in Genesis 1:27, and (2) man has fallen short of the glory of God and no longer upholds that image as he should, as seen in Romans 3:10-18.
Essentially, the life of every human being – and, with that said, of characters – is a war between the remnants of being created in God’s image and their sin nature ever since the fall. There are a variety of ways to strengthen one side over the other (community, the Holy Spirit, philosophy, etc.), but these two facts always remain in there somewhere.
But the question that arises from that is: Is it possible for someone to starve one side of this war, in this case, the image of God, so much that it essentially no longer matters?
I would argue that, yes, it is possible. I’d argue that this can occur through a number of reasons: A few that come to mind originally are fear (being hurt and vowing to do anything needed to avoid ever being hurt like that again), anger (this one plays into the fear aspect – “you hurt me, so let me rip your world apart”), skewered views (there are legitimate times when a villain believes they’re acting as a hero or is willing to make horrific sacrifices now in order to one day, possibly, achieve their idealistic future world), greed (not the just love of money, though that’s a big one (see 1 Timothy 6:9) but also of power, for other possessions, for control), as well as, to an extent, a fallen love (i.e. loving someone/something so much that you don’t care what else you do so long as it akes them happy).
The above is a non-exhaustive list of reasons why someone might suppress their role as an image-bearer, but it doesn’t touch on how. As all of the others have alluded to, no one starts as a villain since childhood. No matter someone’s spiritual standpoint, all are born with a conscience which, as they mature, tells them right from wrong (see Romans 2:14-16).
Yet Scripture also talks of a “conscience seared” or “defiled” (see 1 Timothy 4:2 and Titus 1:15). It is both biblically and factually possible to damage your conscience to the point where you act on your own without its proddings. But this happens over a series of things – perhaps growing up in a society where evil runs rampant (especially when it’s pointed at the character as a child), or having consistent company that pulls you towards wrongdoing, or repeated crimes himself.
In essence: All men are created in the image of God, and this fact cannot be changed. But it is entirely possible that they are treated and act in such a way that their sin nature overpowers their image-bearing to the point where the former no longer affects what they do.
(What, me? Miss reading Aristotle/Plato/Socrates last year? Noooo, what makes you think that? XP)
wonder | beauty | truth | love
@freedomwriter76 Thanks for tagging me! I have also heard the spark of goodness/something likeable theory. As some others here have already mentioned in other ways, I think it’s far more important that the villain have some relatable aspect. Not good or likeable necessarily, but relatable. We understand a little of where he’s coming from, even though it’s twisted. Even villains have reasons for what they do (or at least think they have reasons). A villain who doesn’t seem at least human will be a melodramatic cardboard stage villain. I honestly think I may have erred on that side with Drake, but I tried to make it clear that he had definite reasons for his dastardly deeds.
I don’t think people truly start out good and pure and are simply made into villains by outside forces. We’re all made in the image of God with the potential to be redeemed by Christ, but the Bible is pretty clear that we go astray as soon as we’re born, there’s none righteous, and in our flesh there dwells no good thing. I think we have to be careful, especially in Christian fiction, of perpetuating the “people are basically good” myth. We’re all villains without the intervention of Christ.
Jayna Baas
Christian Author/Editor
www.booksbyjayna.com@freedomwriter76
I think that it is not that all villains need a spark of goodness it is more that they need a reason. In their eyes their actions must be justified (this doesn’t have to be something exactly good but there must be justification (ie villain is selfish). There is a difference. Also you can make a likeable villain without making them have any outstandingly good trates. Sometimes them being super smart, maybe having a cool saying, or other things can help make them likeable.
Through darkness,
light shines brightest@freedomwriter76
Everyone has already made excellent points here, and there is very little I can add that’s hasn’t already been said. However, I do think that it can be good (depending on what your writing) to simply have a ultimate big bad without a sign of a heart. Yes, everyone was created in the image of God, and a villain is someone who likely slowly fell from that for what could be many reasons, they should have justification of some sort. That being said, there is a difference between who a character actually is, and how that character is perceived. Yes, Sauron believed he had it right, he wanted to be the savior of middle earth, and stop pain and suffering, but to some hobbit for example, will that ever actually be seen? Sauron does a bad job at explaining his tyrannical behavior, and sometimes that’s what is needed. It was eventually shown that he felt he was justified, but almost all of middle earth never actually knew about that justification. For a time, he was really just the big heartless villain, and always was that way, as simple as that, and that’s what the story needed. So ultimately, it depends on what your story needs, would it help with your themes if there was a sign of justification from the villain? What could a main character learn, if they saw that a villain was abused as a child? It depends on the story you want to tell, and what themes and intrigues you want to convey. If your worried that your villain will feel like a cut out if you don’t show a sign of a heart, then think about what really makes your villain terrible? Don’t just talk about how evil they are, give a scene where they, without hesitation, give someone true traumatizing pain, and smile. Have them look at the main character in the eye, as they slowly, intimately take the life of a loved one as they main character watches helplessly. Essentially what I’m saying is, if you want a bad to be perceived as not having a heart to any degree, just commit. I do personally think that a villain with subtle signs of a past, or justification, are more intriguing as characters, but pure bads do have a place. Like FireLord Ozai, he is the big bad without a sign of goodness, but it’s his children that are intriguing characters, we see the trauma and pain he’s caused them through abuse and perfectionism. We see the villains they become, especially Azula, and then we see how evil Ozai is, that is what makes him interesting, because he makes them interesting.
(Wow, I always think I don’t have a lot to say…)
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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