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To begin, I just want to clarify a few key points.
1. I do not believe in the practice of drinking alcohol.
2. I do not curse, nor do I want to be someone who curses.
3. All of the below mentioned things are things that I do not want to take part in.Okay. Now that we got THAT out of the way. Movin’ on.
In my novel (which is probably a piece of trash), there are a few scenes that involve coarser (is that even a word..?) subjects. For example, the main character finds out that his mother died and while he’s out to dinner with friends, he curses in anger over his mother’s death. Is that okay?
I am totally and one hundred percent against constant cursing (or just cursing in general, I suppose), both in literature and in life. But, sometimes when you find out that the cookies you were making have started an actual fire in the oven (true story, bro) you just have this overwhelming sense to drop a curse word.
My question is (I guess…I haven’t really found where this question is going…) what are your thoughts, as a Christian writer, on the subject of including cursing and/or drinking and/or other things of that nature into your story.
Do you find that you feel like you are promoting that? Or, by showing what life is actually like with those things, do you think you are throwing a bucket of water on their fire…?
And please, let’s not get into arguments over this. Just state your opinion and leave it at that. Don’t argue because you think that your opinion is better or more valid than the next persons. They. Are. All. Opinions. Treat. Them. As. Such.
Opinion away! (this is about the time that I go to find a little hidey hole to get away from your glares and stares and looks of shame shooting my way)
You know, this is actually a very valid concern. As I believe I have said before, there is a difference between what we write and what we promote. That being said, I have an opinion— treat it as such. 😀 I am not one to say whether or not we should have cursing in our stories and have my opinion treated as gospel, as I am a human being, and probably not a very wise one either. Anyway… moving on from the intro.
First, why does the character have to curse? What does it add to the story? And if the curse is necessary, why do we have to have it written out for us in all its ugliness? Why cannot we simply say ‘he cursed’? But it sounds from your post like this was a one time occurrence that was meant to make the reader sit up and take notice, so I can see why if you were going to do it at all, you would want to do it fully.
Ooh… just had a thought. What is your definition of swearing? An exclamation such as ‘my God’ or ‘good God’ can certainly be used as a curse, but it can also be the prayer of a soul in desperate anguish.
And this is something where I’m wondering… what kind of a guy is your main character? To curse when he discovers that his mother died? Did he have a very bad relationship with his mother? Did he hate his mother, and only depend upon her for money or something? My first reaction if I heard that someone I loved had died would be one of shock and grief, not anger, and it seems to me that a swear word would be more expressive of anger, even fury, than anything else. Also, would you be able to read that part of your book aloud without blushing? Think about that. It has saved me from more than one blunder, I can tell you!
And I will add that Reagan Ramm did a great article on this a few months back. If you dig in the archives I’m sure you can find it— I’m too lazy to post a link, besides I don’t know how. 😛
Drinking… let me just point out that the Bible never condemned drinking itself— only drinking in excess, or drinking in a case that might cause your brother to stumble. Also, it is much easier to write about drinking without promoting it than it is to write about swearing, because when you write about swearing and actually put the swear word down on the paper for the reader to see, you are exposing the reader to raw wickedness. Whereas reading about someone getting drunk will not make the reader drunk themselves. Thank goodness!
Good topic, Natalee.I’ll start off with the topic of cursing. You really should go read that article Kate mentioned. Personally, I don’t entirely agree with it, but I won’t deny that it makes some good points. The one I personally took home was, “Will cursing really add anything to your story?” I’m not sure I have a definite answer to that one, but it is one you should definently think over well when writing a book. For myself, I feel fine with having my characters use mild language on occasions, but I would have to have a very good reason to use any strong language. Since I like writing more about the past than the present or future, it can also be somewhat unrealistic have people spew out tons of filth. The thing I most shy away from is blasphemy. Of all things I could write, that would most shame me to read.
As for drinking, I would personally have no problem writing this whatsoever, as long as I wasn’t encouraging anyone to go get drunk. Kate said it. You can’t get drunk by reading about alcohol.
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Hey Natalie,
First off . . . yup! This is an opinion. Now to the fun part:
What does the Bible contain? Let’s see . . .
Violence? Check!
Sex? Check!
Language? (Despite what some people think) Check!Huh. Amazing right? So if the Bible is God’s Word then that must mean that God thinks it is okay for us to read that kind of stuff so that we can learn from it. If God thinks that we can learn from reading that kind of stuff, then I think that we can write about that stuff so as to teach others something honorable.
Flip side:
We should put honorable stuff in our minds. There’s like a long list of stuff to meditate on in the Bible. Like the “whatsoever is good, whatsoever is true, whatsoever is just . . . think on these things.”Flip side:
The Bible has some pretty dishonorable stuff in it (as stated above), but the end goal is so that we can learn from it so that we can glorify God. And it’s not gratuitous in the description.Truth: The Bible is true and real.
And finally (based on all those facts above) . . . my opinion:
Yes, the Bible does have pretty disgusting stuff in it, but the end goal is so that we can learn from it. I believe that this should be our end goal too. So that others can learn from our stories and glorify God through the principles learned.
However, the Bible is real and we are writing fiction. Therefore, we are a whole lot more responsible of what we say than (let’s say) somebody recounting true events.
So I believe that we can put in that kind of stuff just as long as it is not very descriptive and so that the end goal is so that people can learn from it. If it’s not needed (whether or not it is needed is up to your own God-given convictions) then throw it out.
There you have it. My stand on that issue complete with its purpose.
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
Good thoughts Mark,
This reminds me that the blush rule is only so perfect. There are portions of the bible I would not feel comfortable reading in public, but guess what the bible is men’t for. Yep, reading in public (and private of course). Still, do you really want that awkward feeling when you read your work aloud? I don’t think so. Try to keep things less graphic anyways. That is what the bible does (well, I do have this one translation …).
Another thing to consider is what books you have read that contained language or drinking and whether you found them perturbing or inviting to contemplation.
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And Jesus turned water into wine, so Jesus didn’t have anything against drinking.
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OrpheusAudioAcademy.comI personally do not drink, though at the same time I don’t think it is a sin. Drunkenness, however, is condemned in the Bible. That being said, in my fantasy stories character do drink wine or water mixed with wine simply because that is what people used to drink culturally. But I don’t think I’d have a character in a modern story drink a beer if he was the good guy, simply because that’s not something I want to promote. The same thing with smoking; not something I’d have a good character doing and which (if there ever was a case someone was smoking or drinking) I might say something about it in a roundabout writer type of way.
With cursing, I don’t like reading books that have cursing or which take God’s name in vain…that have the words themselves in the books, I mean. If there’s too much, I put the book down, even if it is minor words (like the Ranger’s Apprentice series…love the books and have read about half of them but don’t know if I’ll finish because of the mild swearing. I know I’m not letting my brothers read them at their age, which is really a pity too. But I digress). Anyway, in books of my own, if there is a bad guy, I don’t mind saying ‘he cursed under his breath’ but I’m not going to write out the curse word. If a good guy is swearing, I might bring attention to it…like him catching himself or someone else mentioning it.
One note, with fantasy, I sometimes have characters say something like ‘by the shield’ because it gives emphasis to what they are feeling and yet doesn’t have to actually be swearing and isn’t swearing in our modern English language.
So that is my opinion, and it turned out quite a bit longer than I meant it to be…but doesn’t that always happen? 🙂
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Exactly. Drinking is not the bad thing— it’s drunkenness. While I have never tasted any kind of alcoholic drink (except a nasty sip of Sangria for a cold) I am perfectly okay with having my fantasy characters drink wine, or ale, or mead, because that is what they drank in those cultures and places where the water was bad, and there was no such thing as a water filter. Ugh. Imagine living in that kind of place.
And ‘by the shield’ is not what I would consider swearing. It’s just like you or me saying ‘good grief’ or ‘my word’ or ‘goodness gracious’. It’s actually kind of cool what you can do with exclamations like that in a fantasy world. ‘Eyes of a dragon’ is one of my favorites. A shield or a dragon’s eye is not something sacred. It’s not something you should take seriously— unless of course the dragon’s eye happens to be searching for you, in which case it might prove rather dangerous to take it lightly. 😛
But jesting aside, making exclamations of everyday things is not, to my thinking, legitimately called cursing.
And ‘religious’ swearing in a story does not necessarily have to be bad, even though it is taking something sacred and lessening it. How many stories have you read with Catholics in them that used “St. Mary!” or “By St. Anne!” or “By St. Christopher!” We don’t consider it wicked to write such exclamations (maybe because if we are not Catholic, we don’t believe they are sacred) in a story, though I would not use them myself in real life. It goes against the spirit of the command ‘you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain’ but is not, strictly speaking and according to the ‘written law’, wrong. So I believe we can use this sort of ‘swearing’ in our stories, so long as it is a neutral element and we are not advocating the use of such neutral swear words. Because every culture and ever religion will realistically have swear words attached to it. Ours is the choice whether or not or how much to show of it.But really, who wants that when ‘eyes of a dragon’ would do just as well or better? 😉
I’d say just put yourself in the shoes of the reader. Would you be okay reading this, or would it make you uncomfortable?
The golden rule comes in handy a lot of the time in writing. 😉Question with regards to fantasy exclamations. I have an allegorical world, with the ‘Great King’ and His Son the Prince and all of that. One exclamation I have used, and which I’m not completely sure about, is ‘by the Prince’. It isn’t swearing in our language of course, but if you used the English equivalent, it could be considered taking God’s name in vain. Now that phrase is not used lightly and is an more earnest and serious exclamation when something serious has happened, but what do you all think?
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Hm… good question. Permit me to present my opinion… reading through the Old Testament, I find a lot of instances where the phrase ‘as the Lord lives’ is used. It is not a common, everyday exclamation, but is used only when a very solemn oath or promise is spoken. I think such exclamations can be misused, as can every exclamation according to the intent of the speaker, but just as ‘my God’ can be a prayer, I think an exclamation of that stamp would be more like saying ‘As God is my witness’, or ‘So help me God’. Again— the meaning of the phrase would depend upon the speaker, and people can tend to just toss exclamations like that around carelessly, but as a solemn oath, or a promise, or a prayer, I think that would be fine to include in a novel. Just make sure it’s obvious that the speaker is in deadly earnest and knows the weight and strength of what he says.
Depends in what light you (the author, not the character) are depicting it.
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