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@Daeus I would never read a curse word from a script, whether play or book. Something you could consider (though it’s kinda minor) about whether or not to put the words in your writing is, what if someone were to make an audiobook or movie out of your story (pretend for a minute that’s likely to happen. 😛 Ya never know!), they’d have to say the word, unless they would cut it out, which would defeat the purpose of it being there in the first place. I know not everyone who’d make any sort of production of your book would necessarily have a problem with saying the word; but even if they didn’t, the word, originally from your writing, would be being said out loud.
*looks back over post* Er…this doesn’t look like a very convincing argument… 😛 But I think it might matter.I agree very much with what @Rolena-Hatfield said here, too.
So for me, would a course word show how evil my bad guy (or even how human my hero having a tough day) in a very real and dramatic way? Yes of course! But I’m an artist right? That means I am creative and should certainly be able to think of a way to show how evil my character is without having to risk my testimony, or compromise an existing principle my parents taught me.
A content advisory is a really good idea. What you said about an author keeping his own conscience clean, and then just warning (via content advisory in your case) his readers of what to expect, is absolutely true.
@dragon-snapper Good point. Some of those other sins are really necessary to a plot, while swearings isn’t so much. I don’t think I’d say that swearing can never advance the plot though. My point isn’t to say that swearing is necessary (it isn’t) but that including it in a book is not the same as doing it yourself. So, let’s take the example of having an innocent person killed (in your book). Technically, you’re not the one doing it (same with swearing). Also technically, you’re the one causing it to happen (same with swearing). It could technically cause some readers to stumble (same with swearing). You could avoid it if you really tried (same with swearing). You’re also (hopefully) not endorsing it (hopefully same with swearing). So the question for me is not, “Is swearing bad?” Of course it is. My question is is it the same thing to have a character swear as to do it myself? Then, if so, is it also wrong to have an innocent person die in your story?
@emma-flournoy That’s something I want to think about because I’d like to make an audiobook out of it. One thing I’m considering is that while an actor only represents one character and is supposed to almost become that character in a sense, an audiobook recorder is representing the whole book, and so I don’t think what he says is attached to him so much. I’m still thinking about it though.🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
I totally agree with you. I wasn’t trying to defend swearing, just trying to find a way to help Daeus with this. 🙂
I understand what you mean by:
“My point isn’t to say that swearing is necessary (it isn’t) but that including it in a book is not the same as doing it yourself.”
However, from the reader’s perspective, the author’s use of coarse language can cause them to pause in reading your book. They see that what the writer actually writes is a mirror image of what they believe. Therefore, when they see use a swear word, they think that you believe that swearing is ok (which I know is not accurate) What I say next might freak you out, but bear with me:
If within the realm of possibility, try to rewrite the entire scene/chapter. If the whole book then falls apart and makes no sense, I suggest you try to make something else fit. During the writing of both Honor Before Prejudice and Blinded By Conviction, I had to scrap entire sections (or entire manuscripts) and start from scratch, and it definitely paid off.
Definitely seek God on this. He will not leave you without an solution that will work. 🙂
Jackson E. Graham
http://jacksonegraham.wixsite.com/jackson-e-graham@daeus: Cursing may seem to add a natural feeling to a character, but, in my opinion, it shouldn’t. “Bad words” are called bad words for a reason: they are often offensive. Just consider how some people feel about this. If you publish your book, you might sell more copies if people felt better about recommending it. I personally wouldn’t recommend a book with unpleasant language to a friend. And in other books I’ve read, authors have substituted things like “(character’s name) swore. ‘I really don’t think we should do this,'” instead of actually putting cuss words in their text. Just a few suggestions. And, like @warrioroftherealm said, seek God on this! It’s a very touchy subject.
If it’s not too confusing to jump back to the topic of similes… 🙂
I think the important factor for me is that when using similes (or analogies for that matter) that they are clearly not mocking God or the Bible.
Similes have a very dramatic pull to them when used and I think are very effective is done properly, with respect for God and His Word.Short and sweet, but that’s all I have to say 🙂
https://rolenahatfield.com/
@rolena-hatfield Ah, yes. I don’t think any of my smilies have that problem, but it’s a good point.
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@daeus I didn’t think that yours would have that problem either! I’ve just seen a lot of similes used to make fun of Scripture and it’s not good.
https://rolenahatfield.com/
This is a great topic. <3 -hops over to add my two cents-
In what I’m working on right now, I’m writing from the perspective of a certain guy who’s… actually quite foul mouthed. But the thing is that it’s not the total sum of his thoughts a lot and it works just fine to go “I swore under my breath as I checked my watch” and still keep it within the realms of what would be realistic for him. And while he tends to explode at people, curse words are not the only words in his vocabulary. His favorite exclamation happens to be “holy smoke” which is pretty clean, compared. (Also been known to call certain others “goody gumdrop” and “teetotaler” because that fit what he was mad at them for better than any curse word.)
Another kind of filter I put in place is that I’m reading the book out loud to my younger siblings after every chapter, so anything I wouldn’t be okay with saying out loud to them either gets cut or glossed over pretty well.
However, I did kinda leave a bit in at a climactic speech moment, because it really would have been weird to just cut off the end and say ‘and then he said a swear which is bad so dun do that’. So yeah. I’m good with it used sparingly. And creativity is a wonderful substitute. <3
@Daeus Oh cool! An audio of your own book…that’d be exciting.
I know what you’re saying about a person reading the whole book as opposed to an actor representing the specific character, but I don’t think the issue of the person reading the book for the audio is the only problem. I thought it might be bad if the word was said out loud at all, whether the person saying it has a problem with doing so or not.
Ok, folks. How about I complicate things more for ya?
So I was thinking about the whole audiobook dilemma and suddenly this verse popped into my mind (memorizing verses is dangerous). It was Ephesians 4:29. You’ll probably recognize this verse. It’s the one that talks about not saying corrupt stuff, but being edifying. Now, without going all various thoughts and questions I went through, basically what happened is that I thought that maybe I should completely remove any language from my book (and I still might do that, but we’ll see). But then all these questions and if-thens and considerations came to mind and I had to go into full blown my-mind-is-completely-occupied thinking mode. After I don’t know how long, I basically came back to my first conclusion, except I had one thing I needed to think more about first. I never got to that however, becuase I had a totally different idea that turned out to be right (at least, I think so). You see, in my family we use the NKJV though I personally use the NET when by myself because it’s awesome. Now, in both of those translations (the only two I had looked at at that point) they both say, “Let no corrupt/unwholesome word proceed from/come out of your mouth…” That had originally made me think only along the lines of oaths, becuase those are single words. The greek work used however, while it can mean only one word, seems to be generally used for ideas or speech in general. When that clicked for me, I looked up the KJV, ESV, and NASB and found they all translate this word in the sense of speech, not just one single word. Even the NKJV and the NET might intend it in this sense, as in, “I’d like to have a word with you” but I’m not sure. Anyway, the translation of speech instead of just a single word would fit better with the general use of the word, sounds more natural, and makes more sense. Now here’s the significance of that.
When Ephesians 4:29 first came to mind, I knew that if I had read it anywhere else, I would assume it meant speaking something yourself, not necessarily writing it or quoting it. However, I didn’t want to read my own interpretation into there since I figured it could mean in all cases whatsoever. The only way I could feel good about my personal interpretation was if the bible itself included something like that in writing. Now if I just consider swear words, the bible doesn’t have any of that (at least, I’m pretty sure not — unless you count fool as a swear word, which I think is a stretch). However, if Ephesians 4:29 is referring to speech in general as I believe it is, then it refers to any speech of a sinful intent. The bible does contain that.
Proverbs 1:11 If they say, “Come with us!
We will lie in wait to shed blood;
we will ambush an innocent person capriciously.”Now, of course, if Ephesians 4:29 refers to any speech with sinful intent, then it also includes swear words. It also means though that this verse does not apply to writing (else the bible would be violating itself)
Now, first let me make it clear that I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with putting swearing in literature. As for myself, I have already decided to take out two of the instances from my book and I’m considering the other two. I’ll at least see if I can think of something better. Now you might point to the second half of this verse and say that’s just as much proof that one shouldn’t write any curse words ever. This post is already long so I won’t go into it at least now, but after studying it, I don’t think the second half is an absolute condemnation against language in literature. I will say though that that second half isn’t frivolous and it’s moving me to approach this subject with even more caution than before.
So, with that, it’s 9:45 and I should probably go to bed.
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@daeus Haven’t read everything that has been said, but I’ll jump in anyway.
I don’t think it’s right to put swearing in a novel. The Bible says not to do anything that will cause your brother to stumble (Romans 14:21). Some people will say that there are Christians who are hyper-conservative and they can be stumbled by almost everything. And because of that you should just rely on your own conscience.
That’s throwing away the Bible, by the way. Because the Bible says. What it says. So what about those hyper-conservatives? Well, here’s the deal. There are some stuff that people will be against. And some stuff that they won’t. You don’t know. But the whole idea of the verse is to not let someone sin.
So tell me. Is it really that important to you to keep swearing in a novel? Do you hold the swearing so dear to your heart that you are willing to make someone else sin because of it? Why are you so protective of the swearing?
I’m trying to help you, bud . . .
I try to offend not.
So don’t be offended.
So in the words of the great Ben Carson: “Can someone attack me please?”
I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com
@mark-kamibaya Sorry. Nothing to attack. Well, at least, I don’t disagree with what you said. If you read through all the comments though, you’ll find my reasons for why I don’t think it is not necessarily wrong to write something that might cause a particularly sensitive person to stumble. The reason is it’s practically impossible to avoid something potentially offensive to somebody out there, so I think our real job is to warn those who might stumble ahead of time so they won’t read our book without knowing what’s in it.
At the same time though, this isn’t something super important. I’ll grant you I haven’t even thought about possible alternatives yet. I was just interested in discussing theory for now, but I’m going to see what all I could possibly change sometime around here soon. I’m hoping to get rid of all the instances if I can.
Hey, if you all don’t mind praying that I could find good replacements for all the instances, I’d appreciate that. I’d like to give it my best effort.
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@daeus On concern of replacement words, just use things that people might say that fits their personality. So, if a villain were saying it, he’d probably use something closer to ‘rats’ or something like that. If a hero were saying it, he’d probably end up saying ‘Grumpy giraffes.’
Sure thing, @daeus. 😀
@warrioroftherealm Don’t worry, I know that you weren’t on defense. 😛☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@dragon-snapper Eeeexactly. It’s so much more fun to give everyone exclamations that closer fit their personality than just ‘well he would have sworn there and that’s bad so I’ll just gloss over’.
Another wonderfully creative substitute that I absolutely love…
Anybody read Tintin?
@writefury Blazing Barnacles!!!
@daeus You asked me earlier…
“My qeustion is–is it the same thing to have a character swear as to do it yourself? Then, if so, is it also wrong to have an innocent person die in your story?”No, I don’t think it’s the same thing, but people who aren’t Christians might see it another way. We are to overcome by Christ and the word of our testimony, but someone may challenge you with that.
Revelation 12:11
and they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony, and have not loved their life even unto death.–
They challenge us in every aspect, in our example and testimony. We must be an example in every way, and regardless of whether you consider coarse language a sin or not. It’s generally considered bad to use coarse language, book or not. It’s not sin to, say, jump off a swing, but it’s a bad example for younger, weaker people. We can’t put up a bad example to those who are weak in the faith.
As for innocent death, it propels the story forward, but that’s not exactly relevant to the conversation at hand.☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
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