- This topic has 79 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hi friends,
I recently received edits from some friends of mine which caught my attention because they pointed out a few instances where some of my characters used coarse language (and asking me to remove them). It was only a few instances (maybe five or so), but I actually didn’t realize I had that many. Now, simply from a pragmatic perspective, while I might be able to come up with good replacements for some of these, at least two I couldn’t really replace with anything affective. However, I’m not a pragmatic person. What I really want to know is what you think about putting language in a book. At this point, I’m fine with using it only very sparingly. In other words, I don’t think it’s absolutely wrong, but I don’t want to treat it carelessly and I don’t want my readers to ever get used to reading it. However, I’m not firmly set in this position, so if you have a different one, I’m more than eager to hear it.
One clarification is that I make an exception for God’s name and won’t have my characters misuse it in any situation. Whether this has to be, I’d have to do a bit more bible research to decide, but since God seems to put a special emphasis on the importance of His name, I don’t touch it.
On a related note, my same friends have asked me to change a few rare instances where I used spiritual references in similes. (e.g. He waited like some evil Saint Peter at the gates of hell.) In these instances, I’m mainly concerned with not using them too often and with making sure they’re being accurate as similes. I don’t see anything wrong with making analogies if the parallels exist, but if you disagree I’d love to hear your reasons.
Now, let me tag some people. @winter-rose @rolena-hatfield @kate-flournoy @emma-flournoy @overcomer @jess @dragon-snapper @bluejay @perfectfifths @warrioroftherealm @christi-eaton
🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢
- Rank: Eccentric Mentor
- Total Posts: 1486
@Daeus Good topic. 🙂
I think it depends. I am not utterly opposed to it, if it is absolutely necessary (Now whether you think all language isn’t necessary, see paragraph below). There is some unspoken rule that cuss words shouldn’t be in Christian fiction, and I’m not condemning that rule. I’m just saying I would be ok if it was broken occasionally, but only for the following reasons. I personally won’t use cursing in my book. I’m not saying my characters are saints, but they can curse without me writing down what they said.The only time I think cursing could be necessary is if you feel that if you gloss over a curse word, your readers will think your character or book is cheesy or fake, if you know what I mean. That’s a danger you risk glossing it over. I’ve read books where, yes, they are clean and I appreciate that, but they aren’t as real (for more than the cursing reason). I think there is a solution though, if you don’t want cursing in your book and are concerned that your reader won’t take you serious if you gloss it over. I read a book where characters cursed, but the curse words were not in the text (except for the fake ones that only related to that world). It worked for this book because the writer did not gloss over other dark stuff. It seemed real, even though the cussing was omitted.
So it depends on what kind of fiction your going for. If your going for clean and more lighthearted fiction, then your readers will appreciate it. If you decide to go for gritty, then your readers will appreciate it. It just won’t always be the same readers. It depends on the audience. I’m not saying you can’t be clean and realistic. That can totally happen. You just need to be able to find a balance.
Of course, this is only one angle to the argument. But that’s all I’ve got for now. 🙂
On similes using heaven and hell, I think its ok sparingly. The reason I say sparingly is because you don’t want to trivialize heaven and hell into a byword.
And I agree with not using God’s name in vain.
Hope that made sense. 🙂For me personally, I am not someone who is sensitive to language within a novel. It only bothers me if it is used too often and without a true purpose other than to shock a reader. In your case, as a reader of your book, I would not have a problem with it because you use it sparingly and only when you feel that you have a good reason. There have been times within my own writing when I have considered the idea of adding a harsh word or two and ended up with a sentence such as “She uttered a foul word under her breath.” which does not have the same meaning as if you would have used that word. Think about how many classic books that use these “bad words” in the context they are supposed to be in. I do not have a problem with any of this. Even one of my favorite books The Fiddler’s Gun uses objectional words. The same goes with the similes you mentioned. If used sparingly, I do not have a problem with them. I know that there are people who are extremely sensitive to things along those lines. @daeus, you and I are pretty much in the same place here. I also agree that the Lord’s name should never be used in vain. That is one thing I will not tolerate.
So as long as the coarse language is not thrown around meaninglessly, and only a couple of times within a story when it is necessary, I feel that it is not absolutely bad, as you said, Just make sure that it does not get out of hand or start affecting you as a writer to begin a tendency to want to use these words in everyday language.
Anyway, I can’t wait to see how other people feel about this as well.Theater kid. Currently depressed because I can't stop listening to sad musicals.
This topic never gets old.
Great points, @Christi-Eaton and @Winter-Rose and @Daeus. I tend to agree with all that has been said so far, but I think I also tend to take a more cautious view of it. Language doesn’t bother me in a book so long as it’s not all over the place. I can block it. But there are those who can’t. And for the sake of those brothers and sisters in Christ and their purity, I would avoid using it myself, even sparingly. You can make darkness totally real and totally awful without spelling out a single swear-word, so why use words that have the potential to compromise a reader’s conscience? As I said, I don’t struggle with it. But I can’t be my standard, because I’m not writing for myself. We each have our separate struggling points. For some it’s occult stuff. For some it’s sexual material. For some graphic violence. And for some it’s unclean language. That’s not my struggling point, but if it were, I know I would appreciate it if I could pick up a piece of Christian literature and not have to worry about anything in the way of temptation to unclean thoughts or words.
Is it a sin to include such words? No. They are a part of reality, and therefore a part of the truth, and therefore have legitimate part and parcel in the structure of a story because that’s all a story is— a reflection of truth. But just because we acknowledge their existence does not mean it’s helpful for us to spell out the entirety of their ugliness. Just as sexual immorality is a sad fact of reality, but it is by no means helpful and potentially very harmful to spell out the details even if it is a necessary part of your story.So even though I’m convinced it’s not a sin, I choose not to include it for the sake of those who struggle with it. Might it be a little harder to make your story real that way? Perhaps. But isn’t it worth it for the sake of a human conscience?
@daeus Wow, I’ve been tagged! Is that significant? 😀
For me, personally, I wouldn’t use cursing in my own novels, and I, personally, don’t like to see it in the novels I read (unless it’s a made-up curse word that no one knows the meaning of, but sometimes that can seem cheap and shallow). A point I’ve heard somewhere (I believe it was on the Rebelution) was that the words themselves aren’t what’s bad, but the meaning behind them. Some people may not be bothered by the words, but others may read into the meaning of them and that could put them off. This is from personal experience, not of myself so much, but I do know people who are so sensitive that they overthink things that are actually harmless. I’m not saying this is a good mindset to have, because it can often make them and others not able to do or watch or read certain things and we all miss out. But, we should also be careful as writers not to make our readers be deeply offended or disturbed by what we write. It wouldn’t be honouring God with our writing if we’re causing our brothers and sisters to stumble. (Romans 14:13-23, 1 Corinthians 8:13)
With that said, adding curse words also depends on the writers’ personal convictions, as do a lot of things. But, if you are unsure about it, it may be best not to have them. For example, I, personally, don’t see anything too wrong with magic in Christian fiction (I know others will disagree), but I am also very unsure about actually writing it myself, so I don’t add it in my own fiction – but am not completely against it and do enjoy reading about certain magic in fiction (I mean, look at Narnia !)
I hope this helps. 🙂
As for spiritual similes, well, I also don’t see what may be wrong with it, so long as it’s sound and making sense with what you’re comparing. An “evil Saint Peter at the gates of hell” is actually quite clever, and a very good way to describe someone menacing waiting for you (I’m assuming that’s what you’re describing! 😀 )
Again, I hope this was helpful and gave you another point of view to work with. 🙂 Ultimately, whatever you decide is up to you and your personal convictions.
Currently reading Les Miserables
- Rank: Eccentric Mentor
- Total Posts: 1486
@kate-flournoy
I really liked what you brought up. Its true that what one person struggles with may not affect another person. We do want to reflect what is real and can’t predict or meet everyone’s needs, but as a Christian we have a responsibility to be careful. We can show darkness without delving too deep.@daeus Well, I don’t think that cursing or coarse language should be in a book, or in movies, or anywhere. I have a few reason that I’d like to point out (please keep in mind that I haven’t read much of the other points that people have made. )
1. When I read, words stand out to me. Each word has a meaning. So, the word stays in my head for whatever amount of time. It keeps coming back, over and over again. I don’t want it in my head.
2. It’s not necessarily necessary. For me, coarse language just shows a lack of vocabulary. Any other word like ‘bubbles’ or ‘rats’ could replace it.
3. It doesn’t glorify God. In my opinion, as Christian writers and putting that seems like we show that we don’t mind it. Do not be conformed to this world. I’m not saying that you/we are if we use it, but God very clearly does not want us to use that in any instance. Yes, characters make mistakes, but it leaves me, personally, going away with an icky vibe from the book.
Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.
Romans 14:14
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak
4. As for the stumbling block, I encourage you to read Romans 14, which talks about the disputable things. Personally, coarse language is unclean, so then to me it is unclean.That’s my say.
☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
Great point @dragon-snapper, Though I may alright in reading it to an extent, (It’s why I am learning to be careful with what books I recommend on KP and write book reviews on) I know that some readers are highly sensitive, and causing them to stumble is the last thing we want to do.
Also, we must remember that we need to strive to glorify God in everything we do.
Theater kid. Currently depressed because I can't stop listening to sad musicals.
Also @daeus, there’s an old post floating around that Reagan wrote called Should you include Cussing in your story? I encourage you to go read it. I remember reading it when it first came out and it has stuck with me since.
Theater kid. Currently depressed because I can't stop listening to sad musicals.
3. It doesn’t glorify God. In my opinion, as Christian writers and putting that seems like we show that we don’t mind it. Do not be conformed to this world. I’m not saying that you/we are if we use it, but God very clearly does not want us to use that in any instance. Yes, characters make mistakes, but it leaves me, personally, going away with an icky vibe from the book.
I agree with @Dragon-Snapper here.
I don’t know how rational of a view this is, and it’s not directly related to the actual words’ significance, but whenever I read a book with swear words in it, it immediately makes me have less respect for the author. When I see them putting those words in their book, it makes it seem they don’t mind using those words themselves (and sometimes that is the case; but with someone like you, @Daeus —I know you wouldn’t use those words. If I read your book though, not knowing you, I might be disappointed, when otherwise I thought everything in your book was great so you must be a great Christian. You might BE a great Christian, as you are, but I might not think so.) Then it could mess up your credibility in other areas. (As with Christian witness—you want to show people Christ through yourself and how you live, but if you do something bad and unChristian, people aren’t going to be impressed. “That’s Christ? Uh-uh. I’m not gonna go near these Christians. They’re so hypocritical.”) I’m exaggerating, obviously; you know I don’t think that way about you. 😛 But to someone who doesn’t know you, and maybe isn’t a Christian, it might mess with the view they’re getting.
But why would you put a bad word in your book anyway? I know, realism. It is less realistic if you do something like ‘What the—‘. But you can avoid the word, and still let it be known it was said. That’s not much less realistic. For me, reading that even if it’s a little less real would be better than actually seeing the written word.
When I watch movies with swearing in them, I cringe every time I hear a bad word. It’s not because it makes me weakened, and feeling like saying those words myself, but they’re just icky words that should not be said and I don’t like to hear them or see them, even coming from bad guys.I haven’t thought much about the simile question, but I think I agree with what @Winter-Rose said here: On similes using heaven and hell, I think its ok sparingly. The reason I say sparingly is because you don’t want to trivialize heaven and hell into a byword.
On similes using heaven and hell, I think its ok sparingly. The reason I say sparingly is because you don’t want to trivialize heaven and hell into a byword.
Here I must disagree with you, though I’m glad you agreed with me first off.
God specifically tells us not to swear by heaven or earth. VERY SPECIFICALLY.
James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment.
This is why I am against all coarse language. God says no. He doesn’t have to elaborate on that for us to obey Him in it. We shouldn’t use it at all.-
This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by
.
-
This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by .
☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@Dragon-Snapper good point, but may I point out that they’re not talking about swearing. They’re talking about similes. Likening something to heaven or to hell, not saying ‘by heaven’ or ‘by hell’.
In which case, by the way, I would also tend to agree with @Winter-Rose.
@kate-flournoy That is true. I suppose that one would say about a favorite desert, “This is heavenly,” that makes sense. Then it just goes back to Romans 14.
About what @winter-rose said. Yes, we need to be careful; and this too, we need to be sensitive to whom our audience is. Children don’t need their heads in that stuff. Teens don’t need to be encouraged in it, and adults, well, they use their own discernment.-
This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by .
-
This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by .
☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@Dragon-Snapper good point, but may I point out that they’re not talking about swearing. They’re talking about similes. Likening something to heaven or to hell, not saying ‘by heaven’ or ‘by hell’.
Yeah. 😀
*cough* Sorry sis. Didn’t stop to think about whether you wanted to answer that or not. 😛
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.