- This topic has 400 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 1 week ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Good points. I would say, based on your response, that even if God is somehow material, the atheist still has one problem. If the atheist says, “The Big Bang caused the universe,” I would respond, “Who created the Big Bang?” They have the same problem that Christians supposedly face, but here’s the difference. There needs to be a cause for our universe (as I demonstrated with the Cosmological Argument), and that cause has to be eternal. Because if it weren’t eternal, it would have a beginning, and therefore also need a cause. It would mean there would be an infinite loop of, “who caused this and who caused that?” The Christian believes that God is eternal, which means nobody needed to create him. The reason we cannot have a universe without an eternal being is, simply put, that we need to have some uncaused first cause (a creator that was not created), otherwise the cause for that creator would need to be explained, causing an infinite loop of pointless paradox.
I really enjoy your feedback! It’s very interesting, but also deeper than I’m used to, so sorry if I take a while to read through it and comprehend it XD
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
Very true! The point that the atheist would make though is that though they still have the same problem, as everyone does, that doesn’t mean that it must therefore be God, as it could be explained by natural processes. They use the term “god of gaps” for this. Saying that anything we can’t currently explain doesn’t automatically mean God. For example, at one point, we didn’t know what caused volcanos, so many said gods. Eventually however, we pieced together a different story, of gravitational pressure on the planet, causing some of that to force back up explosively. The issue atheists deal with I’d say is a hard headedness, with a dedication against the idea of God, whereas a true scientist should always be humble and never eliminate any possibility, even if the answer is supernatural. The thing about needing to be eternal though is eternity also can be regarded as needing a cause. I agree with your conclusion concerning Gods need to be eternal, but I feel that it is simply incomplete. Because while there must be something eternal, why does it have to be a supernatural creator, and not just an eternal entropic cycle? Causality I don’t think is the way to prove God or some supernatural being, though I believe it generates great insight on His eternal nature, and can be a sharp tool in apologetics when used correctly and with other methods as well.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Hmm cool topic!
Though I personally haven’t ran across many people who have ya know, come at me about these things, I know others who have, or who have needed to share the Truth in the moment and it’s always good to know.
For us, it’s not usually wether God exists however, because here, where I live, everyone believes in God.
They can be a drunk on a barstool and still believe they’re saved.
Its that they don’t believe the truth and salvation message, and also false doctrine is rampant.
Which is why it’s so important for us to teach God’s salvation plan according to His word in Acts 2:38-
“Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
And to teach that There is only one God and his name is Jesus.
There are many Trinitarian churches but a lot of people who go there, don’t even realize what their leaders believe. My grandpa (the Bishop of my church) has sat down with many who believe in one God, and we’re shocked to discover their church believed in three.
It’s so sad that people reject the Truth, but it is said in God’s word that the path to His Kingdom is narrow, and few there be that enter.
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebWell said concerning the drunk. Many suggest that if you simply believe, then your good, because Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. However, He didn’t fulfill it so that we could be lazy, it’s quite the opposite. He gave new commandments, commandments that work by higher laws. Matthew 22:36-39 says to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and all your strength, and the second to love your neighbor as thyself. Then He gave another in John 13:34, to love one another as He have loved us. Not to mention all the countless other instances He gave us higher laws such as in the sermon on the mount. He wants us to become something greater than what we are, to not live by temporal law, but eternal law, His law.
Saying I’m saved isn’t enough, Christ wants us to follow Him, and to be like Him with all our power, and by His grace, we are saved. His grace is always there, we only have to accept it by living the way He knows will bring us true exalting joy in this life and the next.
We should know what we believe, and we should study the scriptures diligently to understand the Lords word, then we must do everything in our power to live by its teachings. I must say that I do differ theologically on the nature of the trinity, but that doesn’t matter. As long as we are striving to seek out Christ’s word humbly like a child, then we are on the right path.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
@orangearmadillo cool, cool! An apologetics website would be awesome!
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
@mackenzie it was!
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
Good points, but I do think there’s an answer to all of them.
1. God of Gaps) For volcanoes, we discovered a cause for it other than a god. But what caused the cause for the volcano? With the God of Gaps theory, maybe there is some object or substance besides God that could create a universe, but what caused that to exist?
2. Eternity) God created eternity, because He existed before it. He existed before time began and will continue to exist forever. So Christianity answers both of these questions.
3. Why’s it got to be a supernatural being?) Because whatever caused nature has to be outside of it. Otherwise, it would have to create itself or have another creator, which would have to be supernatural. It would either cause a paradox or lead to God either way.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!! I think people completely forget about the book of James sometimes. It talks about how if we have real or saving faith, we will do good works. Our works aren’t what save us, our salvation does. But our salvation comes from faith, and faith produces works. If it sounds confusion, James 2 puts it a lot better XD
Yeah now I’m working on making Christian games (I haven’t finished one yet), but I will definitely try to make that website XD
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
@thearcaneaxiom @orangearmadillo good points but we mustn’t forget God’s plan of salvation either!
Jesus said in John 3-5:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We must enact God’s salvation plan in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, and that plan was given in Acts 2:38 and was followed by His disciples and apostles.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This was after the Holy Ghost (God’s Spirit) had first fallen and come to live inside the disciples. People saw the SIGN of it (speaking with other tongues) and were astounded. So they asked “What do we do to be saved? To receive this?” And Peter preached unto them what they needed to do.
This gospel was then preached on, and it is the ONLY truth and way to be saved.
Even John the Baptist’s disciples had to be rebaptized in JESUS’ name and Recieve the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues to be able to enter into His kingdom.
Acts 19:1-6
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
People nowadays want Easy Believism, and they do not want the salvation plan, or the true Name of Jesus, nor do they want His Spirit rearing within them.
I am so thankful for the Truth!!!
#IfMarcelDiesIRiot
#ProtectMarcel
#ProtectSebYes, I completely agree.
People forget about the “repent” side of things. They accept Jesus as lord, but not savior. It’s sad how many people believe that they are saved, but are deceiving themselves.
But as Christians, we know the truth, and we are compelled to tell others about it in the Commission.
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
@orangearmadillo awesome!
Where'd I get ya this time? The liver? The kidney? I'm runnin' outta places to put holes in ya.
I’m glad I can’t convince you😂 To still respond to your points though:
1. You play back the causality argument on the atheist, but they may say that there could still be something else. Yes, what caused, what caused, what caused, but saying “God” doesn’t remove that problem except to simply say it’s eternal and unknowable, which isn’t a convincing argument. Any argument you throw back about needing a cause, will still yet be returned with the question of why God or something unnatural is exempt of this?
The atheist may also attempt to answer the causality question in a way that is natural. I’ve actually thought this up myself partially, and I believe it also supports Christianity, but they may still try to use it. Instead of finding the cause of things, let us consider the opposite, true nothingness. I have a box that I want truly nothing inside. First I take out all existing matter, so it’s a vacuum, is there truly nothing? No, I then take out all the existing quantum particles and fields. I then take out all of space and time, yet there’s still something in there, mathematics. I then remove all mathematical laws and logic itself. Now even though it is incomprehensibly nothing at this point, there is still a somethingness to it. I can call it something after all, I can regard it as I can regard something. Perhaps we need to do the same thing to the whole universe in order to remove that aspect. Yet even now, I can regard this concept as, well, a concept, which is something. This suggests a complete impossibility for there to be nothing, thus there must be something, and there must have always been something without creation by default. This is natural reasoning that gives a absolute need for something to exist. I have more to say here, I once again feel it is incomplete, but I will hold my tongue for now to hear your thoughts.
2. Completely true, it answers the question, though does it prove the answer? I think it does, but only with a little more extrapolation, because a conclusion isn’t evidence, even if it explains the data.
3. Well, why does that have to be the way it works? Why does something have to be outside of nature in order to create it? Another point an Atheist might start to bring up here, is what do you exactly mean by supernatural? Do you really believe that God is bound by no law? If so, how is there any power or will to create? Then they’ll try to trap you logically here, because if you try to give any real reason, they will point out, this is a law by which God is then bound. We’ve touched on this earlier though regarding math, suggesting that God does obey natural law, just lives by the highest order of it. But if this is the case, then it isn’t something unnatural that lead to the creation of the universe, but instead something completely natural, though by a higher order of nature.
Totally! Beautiful verses, I love that your putting an emphasis on the Baptismal scriptures as well, many seem to skip out on that part as well as the repentance part. Many seem to simply not understand the scriptures, and it is very saddening. Christ is our Savior, He stretches out His hand for us, we simply need to accept it. Let us repent and partake of the fruit He gives, let us change through His plan of happiness!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
1. The reason God is exempt of being caused is that the only things that need a cause are things that began to exist, because eternal things logically could not have a cause.
2. It doesn’t have to prove that God created eternity. We can’t. Not scientifically at least. Science deals with what we can test, and we can’t test the past. So, our resort is to “prove” it philosophically. And the only logical way eternity could be created is by something that is outside of eternity.
3. We know that the universe has a cause, and that’s the issue. What is the cause? It’s not proving that God exists, it’s giving the only reasonable answer to the question. If a feline created all felines, that would pose a problem, because the feline would have to create itself, and before it could create itself it would have to exist, forming circular reasoning. It’s the same way with God.
By natural, I am not referring to math, as that again is a logical interpretation of the laws we see in place today. What I am referring to is matter, physics, those types of things that we can see or touch. The more abstract stuff is really hard to explain, but it does have an explanation, even if we can’t understand it.
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
The reason God is exempt of being caused is that the only things that need a cause are things that began to exist, because eternal things logically could not have a cause.
Wwwelllllll…. yes and no depending on a whole lot of things. Something that is eternal could most defiantly have a cause. Can I clarify your definition of eternal things to help? By eternal thing, you mean something that has forever existed, right? While intuition may say that this eternal thing cannot have had a cause solely because it is eternal, that doesn’t have to be true. Think of it simply and numerically. Just count, you start with 0, then 1, then 2, and an eternity later, you end up with infinity. This may feel problematic, as it introduces a temporal aspect, and suggesting that one could count for an eternity, but the reasoning is there. Would you not say 1 is the first step towards infinity? Now this is very non-rigorous, and there’s a lot more going on that I would love to talk about concerning the nature of infinity, and how there can be eternities that can’t have a beginning as your originally suggested, but the point is the same, that there is more to it than simply ‘an eternity means no cause’.
It doesn’t have to prove that God created eternity. We can’t. Not scientifically at least. Science deals with what we can test, and we can’t test the past. So, our resort is to “prove” it philosophically. And the only logical way eternity could be created is by something that is outside of eternity.
But for something to be outside of eternity, it must therefore not be eternal, unless it is in some sense more eternal, but an eternal without a temporal aspect, but things become very loosely defined there. Regardless, your absolutely right, that we can’t “prove” God with anything only of our temporal reality, such as science. Those things greatly evidence His hand, and you can hold a strong point, but you can never truly convince someone unless they humble themselves and let the Spirit come in them. Philosophy is useful, and it can deepen ones faith, but it shouldn’t be the foundation of one’s faith, because there is always some other logical argument that can be made, causing one to go in circles as we have been here. C.S. Lewis for example was convinced with logical arguments, but it was because they gave him pause, and humbled him, but it was only when he really took the time to honestly ask in faith that the answer was revealed to him through the Spirit.
We know that the universe has a cause, and that’s the issue. What is the cause? It’s not proving that God exists, it’s giving the only reasonable answer to the question. If a feline created all felines, that would pose a problem, because the feline would have to create itself, and before it could create itself it would have to exist, forming circular reasoning. It’s the same way with God.
Right, this is the complication. Your point can be furthered with the idea of Set theory, where sets cannot contain themselves. Circular reasoning, though we don’t like it, how do we know that’s not how it really works? Set theory can help. The issue with a set that contains itself isn’t that they have circular reasoning, it was that it simply creates a paradox, where I can make a set of all sets that don’t contain themselves, does this set contain itself? It can only contain itself if and only if it doesn’t. The analogue here is if the feline only created all felines that don’t create themselves, does it create itself? Go ahead and think about it for a second. This being said, I still point to the idea of nothing, on face value at least it poses an absolute need for there to be something, it isn’t that the something created itself, it just exists by sheer logical need of existing without need of circular reasoning. I still think this points to God’s necessity and eternity, but another might see it otherwise.
By natural, I am not referring to math, as that again is a logical interpretation of the laws we see in place today. What I am referring to is matter, physics, those types of things that we can see or touch. The more abstract stuff is really hard to explain, but it does have an explanation, even if we can’t understand it.
Sure, that definition works for me. Though it will still be pointed out that Something that can’t be physically interacted with, well, probably can’t be physically interacted with. It would be a double standard that God created and interacts with the universe, yet can’t be touched or seen because He is beyond it. Although, as you say, these things are logical, just beyond our understanding. It will simply be hard for an atheist to take that as it is.
I should note that the majority of committed atheists at this point would likely storm off angerly, or have tried starting a shouting match with you. I’m honestly just intentionally being difficult at this point because I like these discussions, I hope your having as much fun as I am😂😅
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
@orangearmadillo @thearcaneaxiom @godlyfantasy12 @anyone else involved
Sorry, I haven’t been very active on here. But I have a question I’ve been pondering for some time and I would love y’all’s opinion on it.
I ave seen/heard of several studies and article about kids leaving the faith once their adults. I’ve heard various theories about it and whatnot, but I was wondering if y’all have seen/heard of similar things and if you know or have a theory about why this is happening. Why are kids leaving the faith?
This girl is armed with books, coffee, and writing accoutrements!
Good points again, but the whole thing with numbers, you’re starting at one. God didn’t start. He is outside of time, and by eternal, I mean we perceive Him to be. He exists outside of time, so in our eyes, he never began and never will end. It’s not that he’s inside of time, he is outside of it, which means He literally can’t begin or end. Then, he would have to begin or end in time, as he can’t end outside of it.
Also, the thing with felines, the starting feline needs a creator too, and that’s my point. We eventually need a feline that doesn’t need a creator. What I’m trying to say is that nature is here, and if God is restrained by nature, or held inside of it, he could not have created nature, because before he could create what nature, he would have to exist. And before he could exist, assuming he is part of nature, nature would have to exist.
OH YES I do have an opinion on this. Public schools, to put it plainly, and legalistic churches. First kids spend eight or so hours at school, do homework for a couple hours, then have a minor amount of time to read God’s word. The whole time they are at school, Bibles or any form of Christian material is not allowed to be taught or discussed. Then some go to churches that make everything seem like a bunch of rules and don’t share how loving God is. Some also have bad views of fathers because theirs was abusive, and so God seems evil to them. That’s just the very basics, but I hope it clarifies a bit 🙂
The measure of a man is how much bacon he eats.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.