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Thank you for providing this answer. I do agree with a lot of what you said, such as how whether or not God chooses who he will save is a secondary issue and how going to a church, no matter what the denomination, does not determine whether or not someone is a Christian. However, I still would like some more clarification, if you do not mind. You say that to be a Christian, you must follow Christ. Could you define what following Christ means?
Simply that we seek to embody Him in all that we do. As I mentioned earlier, Christ said that the world will know us as His disciples if we love one another as He loves us. He also taught that we should love our enemy, and love our neighbor as our self. It’s in showing true Christlike love that we follow Him. That’s not the whole of it, but I do believe that that’s where one can truly see a Christ follower. As Christ said, by their fruits, ye shall know them.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
So what you are saying is that if one carries out Christ-like behaviour, he or she will be saved? What if I forget to seek after Him at times, being distracted by something else? Am I doomed to go to hell if I fail to show Christ-like behaviour and if I fail to love others as much as I can?  You mentioned earlier that Christ suffered for our sins, where does His sacrifice fit into this?
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
So what you are saying is that if one carries out Christ-like behaviour, he or she will be saved? What if I forget to seek after Him at times, being distracted by something else? Am I doomed to go to hell if I fail to show Christ-like behaviour and if I fail to love others as much as I can?  You mentioned earlier that Christ suffered for our sins, where does His sacrifice fit into this?
I understand that you’re implying the discussion of grace vs works, but the thing is that we are saved by grace alone, and my faith believes that 100%. Works do come into play though, they just don’t satisfy Justice. Imagine the following: a mother pays for her son’s piano lessons. What does the mother want from the son? Does she want him to pay her back? No. Does she want him to pay her back a portion? No. Does she want him to pay the piano teacher, or even a portion? Still no. Does she want anything from her son? Yes. She wants him to practice. She gains nothing for herself in seeing him grow and become a pianist, except that she gains everything in seeing that.
Christ already payed the debt. He just asks that we practice. It’s not for His benefit or gain, nor the benefit or gain of justice, but instead, it’s purely our gain, to become the best we can be through His grace. He gains everything in seeing us seek to learn and grow and change and fall and get back up again, because He loves us, and His love is more sure than that of even a mother’s.
In reality, works is not about doing, it’s about becoming. Let us become followers of Christ in all our heart, mind, and hands.
I would also stress again that God is a God of love. Therefore, He wants us to be where we’ll be the most happy. A mother will still love her son, even if he refuses to practice. What would happen if he doesn’t practice though? If he was sent to someplace like Carnegie Hall, he would scream “get me out of here!”. In other words, Heaven won’t be Heaven, to those who do not choose to live heavenly. So instead, the mother will not send her son to Carnegie hall. Will she send him to prison instead? no, why would she do that? What will she do then? She would let him go where he decides he would be the most happy, even if that’s away from her.
This is the truth taught in the prodigals son. In that parable, the son eventually humbled himself, and came back, and his father ran to him. However, not everyone will do that. Many will choose to continue eating the left overs of pigs, because of their shame. This is the state of hell. It is where such people choose they will be most happy, because they didn’t want to be with God.
So in all of this, the truth of the atonement as I see it is this: We are fallen, and so Justice demands to be payed. Christ payed that debt for all of us, so we are all saved from Justice’s hand. Now that we are saved, it is our choice to figure out what we do with that. Are we going to practice and become pianists, or are we going to refuse? If we refuse, we won’t be happy in heaven, so God in His love, will let us go, as the Prodigal did.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I understand that youâre implying the discussion of grace vs works, but the thing is that we are saved by grace alone, and my faith believes that 100%.
That is great that you believe that! As Ephesians 2:8-9 says, we are saved by grace and through faith in Christ Jesus. Whoever puts their faith in Jesus and believes in him will be saved and receive eternal life instead of eternal death (John 3:36; John 12:46, 48; Romans 3:22-24). And while works cannot save, God will sanctify all his children and change them so that they will do these works and glorify Him in them (Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:12â13). The old self is crucified and God has made me dead to sin, I am no longer its slave (Romans 6:5-11, 2 Corinthians 5:17). While I still struggle with sin and fall back into it daily, the Holy Spirit is at work in me, helping me in my struggle (John 14:16) and will produce the fruit of the spirit in my life (Galatians 5:22-24). I still have a responsibility to fight my sin (James 1:23), but I can trust in God to help me overcome it, and he will (Philippians 1:6).
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Yep! And of course I will still stress the fact that this doesn’t mean that we can sit and do nothing, for faith without works is not faith at all, James 2. God has indeed foreordained us with sacred roles to serve in this life, though personally I believe that it is our choice to live up to that or not, Matthew 22:14, as I’m not a Calvinist. I’m glade that I’ve been able to clarify a few things for you.
Now how about your end? What denomination are you? Based off of our conversation so far, I’d say you’re a Baptist, Presbyterian, or Non-denom. Any of those correct? What is your definition of Christian?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Now how about your end? What denomination are you? Based off of our conversation so far, Iâd say youâre a Baptist, Presbyterian, or Non-denom. Any of those correct? What is your definition of Christian?
The church I attend is non-denominational, but I would say it is in a group of churches coming out of Grace Community Church that feels very close to becoming their own denomination considering it has things like its own hymnal (Hymns of Grace) and Psalter (Psalms of Grace). I’m not sure what it would be called though. Gracits or MacArtherites maybe (I’m just making these up on the spot)? And yes, I am a Calvinist.\
So what makes someone a Christian? How is one saved? To answer that question, I will give you the gospel, because it also shows why we need to do what we need to do to become a Christian and even after one is saved, it is good to review it and remember what God has done. The gospel can be broken up into four parts. God, Man, Jesus, and Salvation.
God:
God created the world and all that is in it (Genesis 1:1, John 1:3). He created us in His image with a purpose, to glorify Him and to take delight in Him (Genisis 1:27, I Corinthians 10:31, Psalm 37:4). He is fully worthy of honour glory and praise, for all that we have comes from him and even the smallest breath is a gift from him (Romans 11:36, Revalation 4:11).
Man:
However, we have failed to glorify God and take delight in him. Instead, we have sought other means for pleaser and rejected him (Romans 3:23). We have made idols out of the creation instead of the Creator and have even sought to make ourselves greater than He (Romans 1:21-25). We have failed as his image bearers, instead of obeying his law and thereby showing his goodness, we have broken it countless times (Exodus 20:1-17, James 2:10). God is just and must punish sin (Romans 6:23, Colossians 3:5-6). He is holy and to accept our sin would be to go against who He is (I John 1:5-7). The punishment for sin is death, and God has every right to damn us to it. There is nothing we can say or do to excuse ourselves (Romans 5:6).
Jesus:
While God just and his wrath is eternal, he is merciful and gracious as well. God the Son, came to Earth, taking on human flesh (Philippians 2:5-7). He lived a perfectly holy and righteous life, always doing the will of the Father and never once sinning (John 6:38, I Peter 1:22). Amazingly, he gave up that holy and righteous life, and died on the cross in our place, suffering the wrath of God in our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 8:3,). Being truly human, he was able to be our representative (Romans 5:19-21), being truly God, he was able to pay the infinite price of God’s wrath for innumerable sins. To show this, He rose from the grave on the third day (1 Corinthians 13:4), showing that he had conquered sin and death and paid the full price.
Salvation:
Jesus was then exalted to the right hand of God where he grants salvation and forgiveness to all who believe in him (Acts 5:31). He paid the price for my sin in the full. To escape the eternal death I deserve, all I have to do is believe in Jesus (John 3:16, Acts 16:31). This is not a belief as in ‘I believe Jesus is real, died on the cross, and rose from the dead.’ (James 2:19) This is a belief where I fully trust him to take care of my salvation (Romans 4:5). ‘There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.’ (Romans 8:1). Thank you, Jesus!
So what makes someone a Christian? A person becomes one when he believes in Jesus to save him (John 3:36, John 14:6).
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
The church I attend is non-denominational, but I would say it is in a group of churches coming out of Grace Community Church that feels very close to becoming their own denomination considering it has things like its own hymnal (Hymns of Grace) and Psalter (Psalms of Grace). Iâm not sure what it would be called though. Gracits or MacArtherites maybe (Iâm just making these up on the spot)? And yes, I am a Calvinist.\
Sounds about right.
So what makes someone a Christian? A person becomes one when he believes in Jesus to save him (John 3:36, John 14:6).
I globally agree with all you’ve said. I especially like the point you’ve made that belief is about the relationship with Christ, not just tenants of what you assume to be true about Him. So going off of this, would you then be happy to call me a fellow Christian, since I nod to all your words here, even though I commit things like the Tritheist heresy? Or would things like that make it so that my relationship with Christ is tainted?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I globally agree with all youâve said. I especially like the point youâve made that belief is about the relationship with Christ, not just tenants of what you assume to be true about Him. So going off of this, would you then be happy to call me a fellow Christian, since I nod to all your words here, even though I commit things like the Tritheist heresy? Or would things like that make it so that my relationship with Christ is tainted?
Hold on, let’s back up a bit. It’s great that you agree with most of what I have said, but I would like to know more about the Tritheist heresy you mentioned. Are you saying you do not believe The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are not one God but three separate Gods? Another thing I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes is that Jesus is created and not eternal. Do you also believe this? Please tell me more about your beliefs here and why you believe God to be the way He is.
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Hold on, letâs back up a bit. Itâs great that you agree with most of what I have said, but I would like to know more about the Tritheist heresy you mentioned. Are you saying you do not believe The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are not one God but three separate Gods? Another thing I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes is that Jesus is created and not eternal. Do you also believe this? Please tell me more about your beliefs here and why you believe God to be the way He is.
Lol, I knew I couldn’t get away with it that easilyđ
Yes, I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit act together as one, but they are three individuals. Hence that’s why some people refer to us as Tritheists, or social Trinitarians.
No, at least personally I don’t believe Christ was created. I believe Him to be Alpha and Omega, God the Creator. At the same time though I believe He is subordinate to the Father (as He makes very clear in scripture), who is also eternal. I believe them to be co-eternal beings. Some members of my faith do believe Christ to be created, but I find that the teachings of prophets of old and prophets of our day to be consistent about Christ not being created.
I do believe that the Father is the literal Father of our Spirits, and I also believe Christ to be the Son of God. So that’s how many make that connection.
The reason I believe these things is because that’s what I’ve determined scripture to say (I understand this may frustrate you). I also believe it because it’s something I can strive for. When I look at the notion of the Trinity, I see something that can’t begin to be contemplated, because it exists outside of reason by its very nature. Why should I try to see meaning in something that by definition is beyond meaning? John 17 I feel makes it clear, when Jesus says that we should be one, as He and the Father are one. That’s something I can participate in, that’s something meaningful to me, that’s something I can strive for.
That’s really the tip of the iceberg of what I uniquely believe and why I believe it, but I’ll leave it at that for now.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
@thearcaneaxiom @linus-smallprint
Sorry guys; I dropped this when young adult life crept into play, and have since lost relevance and steam. I had some specific thoughts, since I wanted to clarify some things before moving forward. But I don’t even fully remember what my questions were… I may come back to this later – and reread our conversation – since I am *nods to Arcane* reading the Book of Mormon. I have a debater personality at times, but life just isn’t it right now, so the best I can do is continue to read your conversation. Hopefully this makes sense đ
#ProtectAdolinKholin
I want to clarify that I wasn’t overwhelmed by this specific conversation and still wanted to contribute. The source of stress is outside this XD
#ProtectAdolinKholin
Sorry guys; I dropped this when young adult life crept into play, and have since lost relevance and steam. I had some specific thoughts, since I wanted to clarify some things before moving forward. But I donât even fully remember what my questions were⌠I may come back to this later â and reread our conversation â since I am *nods to Arcane* reading the Book of Mormon. I have a debater personality at times, but life just isnât it right now, so the best I can do is continue to read your conversation. Hopefully this makes sense đ
I want to clarify that I wasnât overwhelmed by this specific conversation and still wanted to contribute. The source of stress is outside this XD
Totally get it. I was enjoying our conversation, but we can come back to it some other day. Till then, God bless.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Sorry guys; I dropped this when young adult life crept into play, and have since lost relevance and steam. I had some specific thoughts, since I wanted to clarify some things before moving forward. But I donât even fully remember what my questions were⌠I may come back to this later â and reread our conversation â since I am *nods to Arcane* reading the Book of Mormon. I have a debater personality at times, but life just isnât it right now, so the best I can do is continue to read your conversation. Hopefully this makes sense đ
No worries, I understand as well. Sometimes life happens. I hope you recover from your stress soon!
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Lol, I knew I couldnât get away with it that easilyđ
Ha ha. Yeah, this is a bigger issue. You might want to grab some coffee or something to drink for this one, it’s going to be long.
By post does not seem to be working so, tell you what, I will put it in a Word document and give you the link. Here it is:
Why do I believe in the Trinity.docx (https://1drv.ms/w/s!AiULMmf16Ny8jPwbwgM4Vl0Dc1kT4w?e=AdhVif)
Sometimes it is necessary to paint the sky black in order to see the stars.
Yeah, KP doesn’t do well with multiple links, sometimes it doesn’t do well with any at all. It’s kind of hit and miss in that way.
Ha ha. Yeah, this is a bigger issue. You might want to grab some coffee or something to drink for this one, itâs going to be long.
I like the confidence, but I don’t drink coffee. If you want long, we can go long.
Before I respond to all that you’ve said, I will establish my goals here. I am grateful for your care and attention to your explanation, and the care you’ve shown to me as a fellow fallen human seeking truth. I do not intend to convince you that I’m right and you’re wrong. What I do intend to do, is show that things are not as black and white as you make it out to be, and there can exist alternate worldviews based off of the Bible alone that are internally consistent. All I care about when it comes to a worldview is internal consistency. As long as your model of truth has enough answers to its challenges, then I respect it. When it comes to my own worldview, I of course care more about finding the correct model then simply being an internally consistent model, but I must recognize the fallibility of man in that pursuit, and know that the only sure thing is God.
The Bible is very clear that there is one God in both the old estimate and the new. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5; 1 Timothy 2:5). We agree that the Bible is also clear that the Father is God (John 6:27), the Son is God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). While the word ‘Trinity’ does not appear in the Bible, it is the only explanation that works.
Indeed, scripture teaches clearly that there is one God we shall worship. However, one question to consider is des this mean that only one God actually exists? Let’s consult all the verses you’ve mentioned, and see if it’s clear that there is only one existing God.
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one”
Or in other translations “Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord alone”
The issue with this verse is that it is strange wording, and the exact meaning is hard to decipher. The second translation interprets it to simply mean that the Lord alone is our God. The first could be saying that the Lord is one being, but isn’t that implied by simply referencing any entity that it is one entity? When people mention this verse to me in the context of the Trinity, a fun verse I actually like to bring up is Genesis 11:6.
“And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”
This is actually more of a troll than anything else, because the Hebrew word for is is actually the same as are, so it depends on the context. It’s still funny though that this is a verse that says “the ‘something’ is one” but is simply meaning one as in working in unison. Regardless, ‘the Lord is one’ does not denounce the idea of there being other Gods, it only suggests that we should only worship one God as far as I can tell.
“I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:”
Isaiah seems to make it more clear that there is no God except the one true God. However, consider the fact that both Babylon and Nineveh said they were the only nation with none beside them (Isaiah 47:8, Zephaniah 2:15). In that context, they are clearly just boasting about how great they are, but they of course know that there exists other nations. Can this not also be true of God, where He is simply the greatest, and uses hyperbole to show that?
Consider the fact that God is constantly compared to other gods in the bible (Exodus 15:11, Psalm 95:3, Exodus 12:12, Psalm 82:1). Think of it this way, is it respectful to say that God is the king of nothing? That’s what Psalm 95 would be suggesting if the gods don’t exist. Or perhaps is it good to say that Jesus is greater than all leprechauns? Doesn’t sound to impressive to say that your so great that your better than something that doesn’t exist if you ask me.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”
Once again, doesn’t really say that other gods don’t exist. It simply says that there is one God as far as we are concerned. There is indeed no other God whom we should worship.
Now, something I would also ask is, what does “God” even mean? That might sound like a stupid question to you, but the truth is that we all carry different connotational baggage, and the view we have today can be orders of magnitude different from what ancient Israelites believed, so we need to remove our presuppositions and think about what they were saying. Elohim, the Hebrew word for God, is intrinsically plural. It is used in a plural context all the time in scripture, in reference angels, demons, and simply other gods (Psalm 82:1 [God and gods are both simply “elohim”], Psalm 8:5 [angels is “elohim”]). So when we say “God” could that also be in reference to a united group, rather than one being? Why is it do you think that ancient Israelites wrote God as plural, and what did that mean to them at the time?
This is also supported by the language God uses to describe himself.
Then God (singular) said, âLet us (plural) make man in our image…”
Ah, yes, Genesis. Do I not subscribe to the idea of God being plural though? You of course are referencing this to mean the Trinity, where God says “I” and “We” at different points, suggesting a multiplicity and singularity at the same time while also being one being. What I ask again though is what do you think the ancient Israelites thought of this? Did they know about the Trinity? Now, is it really not reasonable to read this as God speaking to some others “Let us make man in our image” Then God goes himself and makes them in His image when He says “He made them in His image”?
“Before me (singular) no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me (singular).”
I don’t believe any god was Formed before Him. In fact, I don’t believe any God is formed period, but He is the highest.
I hear ya though. Your ultimate point here is why is God being referenced in the singular if He is plural. Once again, we’d need to think about what the Ancient Israelites were thinking when this was written. Consider the fact that angels speak in God’s behalf as if being God themselves (Genesis 22:11-12). In this way, they are speaking in the singular, but they are actually referring speaking as another, which then means this is a plural case. How I read the singular verses is simply when one of the members of the Godhead speak, they tend to speak in the other’s behalf, usually the Father’s behalf.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
I mean it could be written as in the names of, instead of singular name, but that’s semantics I’ll have to go to the Greek to see if that may actually be significant, because the English alone I don’t really see an issue with this.
There is nothing else like this. No analogy can be used to explain this without committing some ancient heresy, as poor St. Patric learned. (https://lutheransatire.org/media/st-patricks-bad-analogies/)
I’ll address this later when you bring up more specific points. But yes, I’m aware of the different heresies. It is my argument however that since the notion of these heresies were established after Christ and the Apostles, specifically with the establishment of the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed, I don’t see why I should use that as a primary source for truth. People tell me that said creeds are established as summaries of what the Bible teaches, but the thing is that it was just the majority vote on what interpretation of scripture should be correct.
Why would I question your faith if you deny the Trinity? Well, understanding the Trinity is fundamental to Christianity. It is an issue that has to do directly with who God is. When we change who he is and make him to be something else, it is no longer God we are worshiping. The Bible tells us we need to believe in Jesus to be saved, but if we change Him to be something other than he is, it is no longer Him we believe in. (An example I think we can agree on, is when we ignore God’s wrath (Romans 11:1), we are not going to believe in Jesus to save us from our sin because we will not understand that we need to be saved from anything).
Indeed, I do agree that knowing who God is is important. However, here’s an analogy I’ve given to Whaley earlier, when she said something similar: Â I have a best friend who I wrongly assume has ketchup for blood. Does this misconception of mine impact the relationship I have with my friend? It may be wrong, and it may ultimately not make sense, but I would still be able to talk to and love my friend. There are layers to this though. Say I now believed instead that my friend was invisible. Does this impact my relationship with my friend? Heavily. Now when my friend walks up to me, and says hi, I will reject them as my friend, because of the incorrect belief that they are invisible.
Similarly, there are kinds of views of Godâs nature that can indeed destroy the relationship you have with Him, but there are also some that while incorrect, wouldn’t inhibit your ability to have a relationship with Him, at least that’s my view. The question is, do I have a view akin to God having ketchup blood, or do I have a view akin to Him being invisible? While you and I have views of Christ that are very different in terms of His nature, I’d say that many of the important parts are still there, and I do have a relationship with Him as my Lord, God, and Savior. Though you may simply disagree there, saying that I believe He’s invisible, thus ruining my relationship with Him.
How can Tritheistism or Partialism (another view of the trinity that also sounds similar to what you believe) harm how we view God? In Isaiah 43:10 God says there’s no other god besides Him. If we see three separate gods, His statement is false. To deny this is to say god is lying here (1 John 5:15) or to say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. If we view God as a liar, how can we trust Him to be saved? If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God, how can we be saved? This is why I stress the importance of this
This is indeed important. However, I’ve already addressed why I don’t believe the 1 God thing is an issue to my worldview. It’s not falsehood, it’s hyperbole. Christ used hyperbole all the time (Matthew 5:29-30).
You say one reason you do not believe in the Trinity is that it canât begin to be contemplated because it exists outside of reason by its very nature. I do not think this is a good argument to deny the Trinity. Now I would like to remind you that it is God who created the world and the rules in it. He could change things like math and physics if he wanted to, even if it seemed strange to us. Now God is set apart from his creation and greater than it, and we cannot expect him to follow the same rules as it.
Recall that I’m not a Calvinist. I don’t believe God can simply change things like math. I believe that math is fixed as it is. Without it, there is no God. This does not mean that math is greater however. I don’t believe that truth exists without God, but I also believe in the reverse. Consider illogicality. If there was any point where logic didn’t exists, then it wouldn’t be meaningful to say “God exists”. Consider the paradox can God create a stone He can’t lift? Perhaps these wrongly presuppose logic. In a state of illogicality however, all else falls apart, because there can’t be segregation of logic from illogic, because that presupposes some overarching logic. I’ve had an interesting discussion with a non-denom who simply believed that yes, God can create a rock He can’t lift, and yes, He can create a God greater than He is, and yes He can make it so that He does not exist, and he made some interesting points, but ultimately I’ve only found it to be pseudo-logical. Perhaps I’m wrong thoughđ¤ˇââď¸ The one defender of this view is a mathematical concept I actually suggested to him which is called the nullity, which absorbs all other numbers when interacted with. I assume you’ll disagree with him as well, and will have your own answers to those questions, but ultimately anything you say I can guarantee will presuppose some degree of logic. Take that as a challenge if you wish.
Allow me a story to tell you why just because something does not make sense to us does not mean it does not exist. When I was in high school, (or maybe junior high), I had to read a story. Sorry, I do not remember the name of it or who the author was. In this story, a man stumbles across a village where everyone is blind. It has been this way for several generations, and the villagers have lost any concept of sight. The man is unable to explain to them what it is like to see as they have no reference to what he is talking about. They think he is lying and making things up.
The story you’re referring to likely came from the much older Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, which does give good prospective on how we should regard things we don’t know. Recall some of my worldbuilding I’ve told you about. I ranted about the extra the dimensionality of this universe. The notion of extra dimensions seems absurd and incomprehensible to us, but it exists. I of course believe God can do things beyond our understanding. He makes this very clear through His words and actions. However, there’s a HUGE difference between being beyond our understanding, and being beyond truth and meaning itself. It’s essentially the difference between telling the villagers what sight is, vs telling them that they are holding two apples in their hand when they know they are holding only one. It’s different levels of crazy. God says in Isaiah 55:8: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. Yet God just now established that He has thoughts and ways, which means He is not beyond thoughts and ways.
The Trinity is not the only thing about God that is hard to comprehend. We both agree that God is eternal, but when thought is put into it, it becomes difficult to understand. Sure, going forward makes sense, but when I look backward? God had an infinite number of days. before he created anything. My human mind keeps on wanting to put this in a timeline, but it just does not fit. How did God decide one day to create the world when there was infinite time before that when he did not. I do not even know how to describe my confusion on this because it does not make any sense to me. Of course, we cannot ignore that God always existed, or we run into problems like ‘Where did God come from?’, or ‘Is there another god more powerful than he?’.
Indeed, and those are fascinating questions. As a math guy though, I can tell you that infinity days backward while counter intuitive and not making sense with our current conception of reality, can be a mathematically consistent concept. The ultimately strangest thing is existence itself. Why is there something rather than nothing? These are indeed questions that we can only go so far to answer, then can only simply accept that God stands on the other side.
Another thing hard to comprehend about God but important to understand is how Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time. There are others as well, but these start to go into secondary issues, so I will leave it here. The point is that we can’t comprehend everything about God, and are even told this in several places in the Bible (Job 26:14, Psalm 145:3, Romans 11:33â34).
Yeah, the hypostatic union I see in the same way as the Trinity. It derives necessarily if you subscribe to the Trinity, because you need to explain Christ’s subordination to the Father. Without the Trinity though, Christ is just subordinate to the Father in both His human and divine nature. Regardless, you’ve made your point, and it’s a point I agree with, however, I believe what is true is true, and what isn’t true isn’t true. I don’t believe that the incompressible breaks that, if it did, I believe existence itself would be all for naught.
However, we do not need to be able to fully comprehend Him either. The fact that we cannot understand God shows how he is greater than us. Take a look at this quote I discovered:
“There is a mystery to the Godhead, and thatâs a good thing! If we fully comprehended all that God is with our finite, little minds, He wouldnât be a God glorious enough to be worshiped.”
– h ttps://www.standingforfreedom.com/2022/08/trinitarian-heresies-and-why-the-trinity-matters/
We don’t need to understand these things either. Deuteronomy 29:29 tells us that God has chosen to hide some things from us. To remove things we do not understand is to change God and diminish Him. Let us accept his incomprehensibility and see his greatness!
Couldn’t agree more.
There is unity between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We can see this in John 4:34, where Jesus tells us that he is God. I do not believe Jesus is not implying that He is a separate God from God the Father. Nor is he implying that Christians become God as well. One God is in three distinct persons, and these persons are unified in things like mind, purpose, and love. Through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, Christians get to experience this unity with each other. Another similar verse is this one:
(3) eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (4) There is one body and one Spiritâjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your callâ(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
– Ephesians 4:4â6 (ESV)
This verse seems to be separating the Holy Spirit (one Spirit), the Son (one Lord), and the Father (one God and Father of all) as three separate beings. But what it is doing is emphasizing that while all three have different and unique roles, they are completely unified in every way. Christians (one Body) get to participate in this unity as well. Why? Because the Holy Spirit dwells within them unifying them together as one body.
Could you elaborate on John 4:34? Either I’m misunderstanding it, or it’s the wrong verse. Regardless, I understand this explanation. It once again comes to the Hypostatic union, where it’s Christ’s human nature being one with the Father, and therefore different from Christ’s divine nature being literally the same being as the Father. This simply doesn’t do it for me though, because that’s still a different way in which they are one. This also is problematic with all the other verses where Christ says He and the Father are one. If you can make the claim that those show that they are one, but in this case, it’s simply Christ’s human nature, then I can claim that all those other verses are simply saying that they are one in purpose, just as this one is. The explanation you gave about how they work together I 100% agree with. I simply believe that’s what it is period, that they are working together as three distinct beings, and we can be one in the same way.
Well, there you have it. You now know why I believe accepting the Trinity is necessary for salvation and how believing otherwise is harmful… I cannot make you believe this, but I hope you will see the seriousness of the issue and why there is one God in three distinct persons. This is what I stand by and I sincerely hope you will come to see this as the truth.
Thanks again for taking such time and care in telling me all of this, and I appreciate your sincerity in desiring that I come to share your understanding. Thank you for the resources you gave as well. I really am sorry that I will not share your view on this today, and I hope this all shows why. I will always be open to more truth, and will always offer a humble heart and contrite spirit, but everything you’ve said I have heard before, and I only become increasingly convinced of the contrary as I’ve taken my own time to study scripture. Whatever the truth may be though, may we all seek and find it. As a Calvinist, take hope, perhaps I am amongst the Lord’s elect, and He will change my heart. However, I have a testimony that this is the truth, and I extend a hand with equal confidence to you as you do me. I do hope we can continue discussing these things, and continue learning and growing in understanding. I know I still have more to say, but I will stop there for now. I look forward to whatever you have to say.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
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