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Actually, reading through what i said and what you said again, i think in a couple spots I misunderstood you.
"You need French Toast."
Okay, my hands are starting to sweat, which happens when I get excited.
😁
In context, your verse actually means that Paul can bear, can do anything God wants him to do if God wills it and strengthens him.
Yeah, makes sense to me!
The Doctrine of Hermeneutics. The latter part of that verse (John 1:3) says simply that what this passage means by “things” is everything that was made.
Ahhh, great point, but are you not then still only assuming that mathematics is part of the set of everything that was made? Can mathematics not be part of the set of things that are not made, like God? It doesn’t say there was nothing at all besides God. It says all things that are made are made by Him, so why must math be part of that set? Is not this language we’re using of things that are made, and things that are unmade, logical language, therefore logic existed at this point? If not, I would say that applying any logic to this verse wouldn’t be meaningful.
If that be true, then how is your God different from the false gods? False gods use elements, they use things to govern the universe. You have stripped God of His Sovereignty, and made him little different than the gods of imagination.
… That feels like a low blow, but ok. God is the most high, there may be false gods, but they have no power, He does. Lesser gods in their theologies have control over specific things, but God has control over all things. The Omni-God beyond logic itself I find to be too similar to the unknowable God you described earlier, which comes from platonic philosophy primarily, which I find distant. You claim I strip Him of His sovereignty, but the beyond body, parts, and passions thing, I find is stripping Him of His love and relationship with us. I don’t care if my God is all sovereign or not, I just care about the fact that there is non above Him, and that I can trust Him, and have a relationship with Him.
I don’t understand what you are saying in this paragraph. I especially want you to explain what you mean by “reconcile”.
I’m explaining that I’m not being forceful on you. By reconcile, I simply mean explain, elaborate, give context to the text. I’m saying you can believe what you believe. I don’t feel threatened by your verses, and I’m simply explaining you needn’t feel threatened in anything I say either.
idk what you were trying to prove with Isaiah but here’s that piece in context…
Thanks! I 100% agree that context is needed to understand the text. In this case though, I don’t think it changes anything. What I’m saying with that verse is that God is saying He has thoughts and ways, laws He lives by.
I’m known for not stopping and being stubborn, so I’m going to far with this, let me know.
Oh, no no, don’t worry about me. The last Calvinist I’ve spoken to I had to speak carefully to not offend, but if you can handle a good discussion, then I’m more than happy to oblige! (As long as we remain respectful)
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Can mathematics not be part of the set of things that are not made, like God? It doesn’t say there was nothing at all besides God. It says all things that are made are made by Him, so why must math be part of that set? Is not this language we’re using of things that are made, and things that are unmade, logical language, therefore logic existed at this point? If not, I would say that applying any logic to this verse wouldn’t be meaningful.
You still haven’t proven that mathematics wasn’t created by God. Ihnk in is wise, we will have to agree to disagree and turn away, unless you want to continue.
Mathematics, logic, emotion would not exist without God, and I believe that God created them. But I can’t really prove that, neither can you disprove it.
… That feels like a low blow
I’m sorry…I get very passionate about things and sometimes say what my heart says without making it sound sweet.
Lesser gods in their theologies have control over specific things, but God has control over all things. The Omni-God beyond logic itself I find to be too similar to the unknowable God you described earlier, which comes from platonic philosophy primarily, which I find distant.
Okay…my brain translator broke so I’m gonna sound like an idiot now.
God is not beyong logic, but He could be if He wanted too. He isn’t only because He does not change. The reason I believe you think the God I describe as that is unknowable, is because it is beyond what our human minds can process. Actually, that makes God better than if we understood everything about Him. Idk if this makes sense, but resting in the fact that I don’t know everything about God, makes it somehow…more comforting, more peaceful.
Yeah, I feel distant from God rn, but that’s not because of what you’re saying makes God distant, is because of some personal things that are going on in my life. God used to be as real and close to me as my family, now He has grown distant, for reasons I will not disclose in a place where I can’t delete them.
You claim I strip Him of His sovereignty, but the beyond body, parts, and passions thing, I find is stripping Him of His love and relationship with us. I don’t care if my God is all sovereign or not, I just care about the fact that there is non above Him, and that I can trust Him, and have a relationship with Him.
If you don’t care, you don’t care. That’s between you and God, I can’t change that. Knowing, resting in God’s sovereignty is so comforting to me. To know that THE God, Sovereign of the Universe, cares, loves, holds the most imperfect girl. That He lives with me, that He made my body “His holy temple” is just…wow. I can see why it may not matter to you, it only matters to me, and that’s okay. I can accept that.
I’m explaining that I’m not being forceful on you. By reconcile, I simply mean explain, elaborate, give context to the text. I’m saying you can believe what you believe. I don’t feel threatened by your verses, and I’m simply explaining you needn’t feel threatened in anything I say either.
Okay
What I’m saying with that verse is that God is saying He has thoughts and ways, laws He lives by.
No, no, no, no. Look at the context again. Isaiah is talking about turning to the Lord, and if you take it in context, it actually appears to say that God is so much more righteous than man. Read verses 7-9 slowly, and carefully. Where does it say “I have laws I follow too.” Man and God are nothing alike in nature.
Oh, no no, don’t worry about me. The last Calvinist I’ve spoken to I had to speak carefully to not offend, but if you can handle a good discussion, then I’m more than happy to oblige! (As long as we remain respectful)
Okay, that’s good. what’s your definition of respectful?
"You need French Toast."
You still haven’t proven that mathematics wasn’t created by God. Ihnk in is wise, we will have to agree to disagree and turn away, unless you want to continue.
Mathematics, logic, emotion would not exist without God, and I believe that God created them. But I can’t really prove that, neither can you disprove it.
I actually never was trying to prove it. As I said, I was never trying to force any point on you, although I can give it a go. It would be more philosophical than biblical, though I can probably think of a few verses. This was my point though, that I didn’t think that I had to accept that God created mathematics by any biblical verse, thus my belief in the opposite can be justified via other means, but you don’t need to agree with those means, as long as it’s understood that they aren’t logically inconsistent in any way, thus we can simply agree to disagree as you’ve put it.
I’m sorry…I get very passionate about things and sometimes say what my heart says without making it sound sweet.
Hey, that’s alright. I’m speaking bluntly myself, and you are completely free to do the same. To answer your later question on being respectful, I would simply say that we make sure the other feels and is properly heard before we give a counter to any point. Also that we simply keep in mind that the other is simply trying their best to follow Christ in the best way they know how (Btw, I wasn’t saying the conversation wasn’t respectful thus far, I just always like to give that reminder in all my conversations). You made an excellent point of the difference between our faiths. I still say that I worship the God of Abraham, but you make a great point that it looks like we see a very different God. Any god that’s not like the God of Abraham is usually considered pagan, and lesser, so it makes sense that you would make such a claim when my understanding of God doesn’t fit your interpretation.
Okay…my brain translator broke so I’m gonna sound like an idiot now.
Sorry😅 I’ll be graceful.
God is not beyond logic, but He could be if He wanted too. He isn’t only because He does not change. The reason I believe you think the God I describe as that is unknowable, is because it is beyond what our human minds can process. Actually, that makes God better than if we understood everything about Him. Idk if this makes sense, but resting in the fact that I don’t know everything about God, makes it somehow…more comforting, more peaceful.
I get it, that’s the platonic philosophy of God, saying He is beyond all comprehension. In my faith, we don’t claim to know the ins and outs of God’s nature, indeed, we believe that we would burn up in His presence. Logic as we understand it cannot quantify Him. That being said, I think that God can reveal Himself to us, and that we can know Him if He opens our minds to it, and changes our bodies that they might bear it. While logic as we understand it can’t quantify Him, I still believe higher orders of logic we don’t yet have can. He is truly all powerful, all sovereign, and has many mysteries, we just have very different ideas on what that means. I’m glad you have comfort in that though, your relationship with God is your own, He knows and loves you perfectly.
Yeah, I feel distant from God rn, but that’s not because of what you’re saying makes God distant, is because of some personal things that are going on in my life. God used to be as real and close to me as my family, now He has grown distant, for reasons I will not disclose in a place where I can’t delete them.
I get it. Sometimes it feels like He’s not there. I can testify that He is there, He knows you and your struggles intimately, His hand has been in your life. He is not distant, He is right there beside you in every moment, even when you feel like your missing Him. I’ve seen His hand in my life, in the good and the bad, even when I felt that I didn’t deserve it, and He is no less present in yours. Yes, please don’t feel any need to express your personal struggles to a icon on a screen, once on the internet, it will never leave. That being said, while you may feel that I worship a different God, if it’s any consolation, I’ll pray for you to feel close to Him again.
If you don’t care, you don’t care. That’s between you and God, I can’t change that. Knowing, resting in God’s sovereignty is so comforting to me. To know that THE God, Sovereign of the Universe, cares, loves, holds the most imperfect girl. That He lives with me, that He made my body “His holy temple” is just…wow. I can see why it may not matter to you, it only matters to me, and that’s okay. I can accept that.
I should clarify that I do believe that God is all sovereign, once again, we just have very different ideas of what that means. When I say that I don’t care, I’m saying that this isn’t a game of my god can beat up your god, that’s not the point. Indeed, THE God, Sovereign of the Universe, cares, loves, holds the most imperfect girl. That He lives with you, that He made your body “His holy temple”, I do believe in 100%, and is deeply important to me. When I say I don’t care if God is all sovereign or not, I’m saying that I don’t care if God can’t make 1+1=3, because that’s inherently nonsensical to begin with in my eyes, but He is indeed all powerful, and that is something I do care about.
No, no, no, no. Look at the context again. Isaiah is talking about turning to the Lord, and if you take it in context, it actually appears to say that God is so much more righteous than man. Read verses 7-9 slowly, and carefully. Where does it say “I have laws I follow too.” Man and God are nothing alike in nature.
Of course it’s saying that God is so much more righteous than man. It’s saying that God is so much greater than we could imagine. However, He says this by saying, my thoughts are not your thoughts. That still implies He has His own thoughts and way of doing things. Indeed, it’s saying that these thoughts are far greater and more righteous than our own, but they are still thoughts, and they are still ways. Does a “way” not imply a pattern of doing something? A way He follows?
Shall we take this a different direction? Do you believe that God is not God, unless He is Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Okay, I sound like an idiot and feel like one.
This reply is going to be short, I didn’t get to sleep until like four this morning so my thinking braincells are dead.
Shall we take this a different direction? Do you believe that God is not God, unless He is Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
Is my guess correct that this is a trick question? If God was like that without those attributes in His entire existence in His infinity, then He would be God still. Point is, He’s not the way. This probably doesn’t make sense, but let me try to explain via example. I have blue eyes. If I was born with brown eyes, would that make me not Ruee? No, because the world would know no other Ruee. But I wasn’t born with brown eyes, I was born with blue, so therefore I’m known to have blue eyes.
*faceplants* idk if even my example makes sense! I really need to start taking something to sleep better at night…
I should clarify that I do believe that God is all sovereign, once again, we just have very different ideas of what that means. When I say that I don’t care, I’m saying that this isn’t a game of my god can beat up your god, that’s not the point. Indeed, THE God, Sovereign of the Universe, cares, loves, holds the most imperfect girl. That He lives with you, that He made your body “His holy temple”, I do believe in 100%, and is deeply important to me. When I say I don’t care if God is all sovereign or not, I’m saying that I don’t care if God can’t make 1+1=3, because that’s inherently nonsensical to begin with in my eyes, but He is indeed all powerful, and that is something I do care about.
Okay, I think we are now on the same page.
"You need French Toast."
Although, it’s not really a trick question. I mean it seriously. The trick is in that of trying to lead you to accept something about the nature of God if you do subscribe to all the Omnis.
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
What the, I think KP just deleted my last post, give me a sec
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
Okay, I sound like an idiot and feel like one.
I’m sorry:(
This reply is going to be short, I didn’t get to sleep until like four this morning so my thinking braincells are dead.
Please do take the time to think things through, and get the proper amount of sleep to do so, otherwise this conversation will fall flat.
Is my guess correct that this is a trick question? If God was like that without those attributes in His entire existence in His infinity, then He would be God still. Point is, He’s not the way. This probably doesn’t make sense, but let me try to explain via example. I have blue eyes. If I was born with brown eyes, would that make me not Ruee? No, because the world would know no other Ruee. But I wasn’t born with brown eyes, I was born with blue, so therefore I’m known to have blue eyes.
It’s kind of a trick question, but not really. It is a serious question, but there’s a few things I think must be accepted if you do subscribe to this. If God didn’t have those attributes, He would by definition, not be all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all present. If God wasn’t all powerful just like other Ruee doesn’t have blue eyes, then does that mean that His sovereignty isn’t necessary?
*faceplants* idk if even my example makes sense! I really need to start taking something to sleep better at night…
Hey, that’s ok, get the sleep you need, take your time.
Okay, I think we are now on the same page.
Agreed😁
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
and get the proper amount of sleep to do so, otherwise this conversation will fall flat.
Proper amount of sleep? My amount of sleep is apparently four to six hours… Whatever.
It is a serious question, but there’s a few things I think must be accepted if you do subscribe to this. If God didn’t have those attributes, He would by definition, not be all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all present. If God wasn’t all powerful just like other Ruee doesn’t have blue eyes, then does that mean that His sovereignty isn’t necessary?
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying but what I was trying to say is, if the Universe knew no god who had all the Omni’s, then we… Idk how to say this… Would know no greater thing, so that would be the ultimate god. If that makes sense.
Btw, it’s not your fault I don’t understand, I’m pretty sure my brain died…I’ll figure it out…eventually.
"You need French Toast."
Proper amount of sleep? My amount of sleep is apparently four to six hours… Whatever.
🙃
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying but what I was trying to say is, if the Universe knew no god who had all the Omni’s, then we… Idk how to say this… Would know no greater thing, so that would be the ultimate god. If that makes sense.
I’m quite fine with this logic, but you might be interested in learning about Modal logic, which is essentially one of the more modern and interesting ontological arguments that essentially says that God must necessarily be the greatest being that can be conceptualized, and thus would have all the Omni’s, because He is “maximally great”. Ignoring that though, you were saying earlier that I stripped God of His sovereignty. You were saying that He has an infinite array of degrees of freedom, but now your saying that we can remove some of those arrays, thus binding Him to some law of what He can and can’t do, yet He can still be God. To you at least, is that not what I’m doing when I suggest that God didn’t create mathematics? (personally, I’d say no, but I have a very different idea of freedom and law.)
If it is true that God is maximally great, which I think we both agree He is (despite having different concepts of what that means), then what I was leading up to is the question of can God do evil? If He can, then that means He’s not omnibenevolent, or at least, He is only omnibenevolent in His particular personality. If He can’t, like many believe, then that is clearly a restriction of what He can and can’t do, a law. (I think I know what you’ll say to this, but I’ll take things one step at a time.)
Btw, it’s not your fault I don’t understand, I’m pretty sure my brain died…I’ll figure it out…eventually.
That’s alright. I try to be graceful, but I’m also prone to overload people with information as well.
Happy New Year btw!
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
I officially label myself an idiot who can’t explain anything right!
Ugh! I’ll reply once I cool off…
This is all my fault.
"You need French Toast."
I officially label myself an idiot who can’t explain anything right!
Ugh! I’ll reply once I cool off…
Don’t label yourself an idiot:(
I look forward to your reply!
This is all my fault.
🙁
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
@everyone
So Alvin Plantinga’s Modal logic for God is essentially the modern ontological argument that many consider to be far more convincing than Anselm’s.
Here’s the gist:
1. It is possible that there exists an all powerful being that created the universe.
2. If something is “possible”, then it does exist in at least one reality.
3. An all powerful being that exists in one reality, would have the power to exist in every reality.
-Therefore, God exists in every reality, including this one. QED
One of the biggest flaws with Anselm’s argument is that you can make anything you want to exist, exist. Whereas here, Modal logic doesn’t quite allow that same problem. If I try to imagine the perfect island, then it may exist in some reality, but it wouldn’t have the power to exist in every reality, unlike God. In the case here, all you need to accept is whether or not it is “possible” that an all powerful being exists.
That being said, I feel like this argument is still flawed. I can explain why, but does anyone else have any thoughts on whether or not this holds water? If so, why, and if not, do you think there could be a logical argument along these lines that does?
He is perfect in Justice, yet He is perfect in Mercy, even when we fail Him. For this, He is good.
*appears from nowhere*
The flaw I see in that argument is the second premise. You have to accept some sort of multiverse theory where every possibility exists in some reality. Furthermore, if the definition of “all powerful” includes being able to influence all realities, then would said being not be preeminent over all realities instead of belonging to a single one? In that case, you essentially just have God over a multiverse instead of a single universe.
Lastly, the whole idea of a multiverse seems to contradict the existence of God. If every possibility exists, are there realities where God is different? Even if we don’t go that far, there would be realities that are horrible. And God’s plans would be pointless, because there would already be a reality where those plans worked out anyway, never mind that there would also be realities where things went horribly wrong.
That’s my 2 cents.
*vanishes without a trace*
🏰 Fantasy Writer
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🏰 Fantasy Writer
✨ Magic System Creator
🎭 Character RPer
📚 Appreciator of Books
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