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Hey, guys. I’ve got a QUESTION.
Okay, so basically, in one of my stories the main character (who is sort of an antihero), is I guess “rough-around-the-edges”.Anyways, the problem is this: I want to portray him as the hardened-heart guy who’s been through so much, but is still fighting for good. Unfortunately, he’s bitter and well, darker because of his turbulent past. One of the elements I THOUGHT about putting in his character was that sometimes he cussed. I’m not making him exceptionally foul-mouthed, and I won’t be using the TOP-10 worst curse words at all. (I’m not even going to list them), but do you think that things like “crap” or “damn” are acceptable if not used in super insulting ways? I actually think that “damned” is a word in describing a few things, but I’m not sure about the other one.
Okay, so that’s my question. Anyone can post their opinions and answers. Thanks!
Life's a cruel joke, so you have to laugh at it sometimes.
Oh yeah, I forgot to tag some people:
@kate-flournoy, @winter-rose, @silverclaw-bonnetfolly, @dragon-snapperLife's a cruel joke, so you have to laugh at it sometimes.
@Xonos-darkgrate ah, classic question. 😀
I’m definitely not a fan of sanitizing everything to the point of complete squeaky-cleanness, because it’s dishonest.
That said, I think swearing is unnecessary to say the least. It’s different than other ‘content’ for one. Say, for instance, one of your characters is a harlot. Pretty dark, right? But you don’t have to wallow in it or go into details that might be harmful for the reader. Think Fantine from Les Miserables. Her life was a horrible one, and yet we still learned so much from her because the darkness was there as a warning (and to make her struggle at redemption more powerful), not to be wallowed in.
For swearing, the swear word IS the details. I have no problem whatsoever with saying ‘he swore’ or ‘he muttered an oath under his breath’. But when the swear word is spelled out on the page, you’re giving the reader all they need to fall into temptation.
That sounds okay, but I’m not sure how to do that since the book is written in first person.
Life's a cruel joke, so you have to laugh at it sometimes.
@Xonos-darkgrate ooh, yeah. That’s tougher. I think it could still be done though… ‘I swore silently,’ or ‘Easily half a dozen rather ungentlemanly words jumped to my lips and I just barely bit them back’. It depends a lot on his voice, of course, but I believe it’s possible.
@xonos-darkgrate I basically side with @kate-flournoy, though I don’t think that swear words cannot ever ever be used.
We had a discussion on this before you might want to read. https://kingdompen.org/forums/topic/coarse-language/
Basically, my position is that you should try as hard as you can not to use any swear words and that the majority of books shouldn’t need them at all (except the particularly mild ones like Kate mentioned). Could I conceive of an instance though where a swear word might actually add to a story? Yes, I can. But it is honorable to remove them from your story nonetheless.
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@xonos-darkgrate I’m going to stick with my opinions from the previous discussion that @daeus mentioned. I don’t think that you should have them.
1. Not only do they infiltrate other people, but it’ll also get stuck in your head. I find that the more I hear them, the more I think them. And even if they aren’t “that bad” they still make me cringe.
2. We are Christians, and are meant to be different from everyone else. I’m not saying that you in particular are supporting the use of coarse language, but it doesn’t do anything good for our testimony.
There are ways to make a character ‘rough on the edges’ as you put it without using any curse words at all. The False Prince (Jennifer Nielsen) is a good example. So is Blood on the River (Elisa Carbone). And @kate-flournoy’s suggestion, ‘he muttered an oath under his breath’.
Not only do we need to guard our readers from the temptation, but ourselves too.
☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
@xonos-darkgrate I agreed with @kate-flournoy @dragon-snapper @daeus
I was going to say what Kate said.IMMA KAPEEFER! Til we're old and gray!
Hey, guys. Here’s another question. It’s not the same thing, but to reduce spam and unnecessary posts (which the other forums I’m a part of is very big on), I’ll just keep it here.
Anyways, I know that it’s fine to add darker elements to stories to make them more realistic. (not cursing though, 😉 ), but what, exactly, would be the limit or too excessive? I was recently working on a book of mine, and one of its main focuses is the darkness of human nature. Because of that, I was aiming to have certain parts of the book to be darker than pretty much anything I’ve written so far. It’s not how I plan to write it for the whole length, but I’d like to know if this is just too much or wrong from a Christian standpoint. So here’s the link to it: A Hole In The Brick Wall
Thanks, guys!
@catwing, @dragon-snapper, @daeus, @kate-flournoy,Life's a cruel joke, so you have to laugh at it sometimes.
Hey!
So I haven’t read the thing, because I’m a bit of a ‘link-a-phobe’ (not you, just the internet), but my main thoughts are dark themes and darkness in literature in general is that if you’re not comfortable showing it to someone close to you, like your mom or dad or brother or sister or best friend, then it may have gone to far. Now, I haven’t read this, so I can’t say anything. But also, you should ask what darkness can do for you in the story. If you’re able to go with less, go with less. We are lights as Christians, not black-matter candles (sounds like something from Star Trek…).
Another thing is that our actions should be for Christ, so if God is glorified in the story (as in, the darkness you may portray is defeated), then it may be better than if darkness is the only thing that’s there. If you do use darkness, always have a light in there.
And Kingdom Pen has some articles on writing darkness.
I’m not an authority on this subject, but God is clear. Check out what God has to say in His Word. 😀☀ ☀ ☀ ENFP ☀ ☀ ☀
I’ll just stop in real quick to drop a few bits of meat, but if you want to hear a lot about this subject, we have several articles on it.
The thing I think is crucial to understand with content is that you want sympathy but you do not want empathy.
Sympathy is when you feel for or understand another person’s emotions.
Empathy is when you literally feel the other person’s emotions as if you were them (though it doesn’t have to be to the same degree they feel it)
So, let’s take lust for an example. Character A is your stereotypical pervert in this area. There are two ways we can write Character A. Option one is to describe his actions, his emotions, and his thoughts so that readers sympathize with him. This is a good thing. The reader needs to understand why Character A is the way he is and they need to see themselves in him. They need to understand the attraction of Character A’s lifestyle so they can pity him.
HOWEVER!
We do not want to describe this character’s actions, emotions, and thoughts so that the reader empathizes with him. To write sin empathetically is to take the same scenario that we would write empathetically and write it not just honestly, but openly. You’re less likely to do this if you don’t intend to, but it is still possible.
Deciding what is sympathetic and what is empathetic can be a little tricky at times, but I believe understanding the basic difference between the two makes it easier to discern this issue. Also, while you shouldn’t take this to an extreme, err on the side of caution.
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Oh, and I didn’t read your excerpt either. If I did, I’d want to know what basic content was in it first and I might not be able to get it in anyways.
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I put some thought into it, and I came to this conclusion:
Darkness and things like that, (that’s not over-the-top-described), are acceptable in a story IF it is clearly portrayed the Darkness and the Light. Basically, writing for God or something like that?
The theme of The Hole In the Brick wall is superheroes, but the moral is sort of the question: “Does power make a man stronger, or weaker altogether?”
Either way, it’s not a dystopian setting or futuristic, it’s set in today, but my next question is this: Is putting God into the story essential? I mean, I’m not sure how that would work out.
I am aiming for a moral, but I don’t really think/know if I can add God into the story directly.
I was adding in darkness to show terrible human nature, or rather, incur it. In any case, the content that I put in was to help readers understand who’s the bad guy in the situation. Not mindless gore.
What’s in my excerpt? Oh yeah, I understand if you guys are a bit cautious around links. I can post what I have so far here. (it isn’t much at all)
But the biggest content I thought MIGHT be objectionable was said violence, almost-implied rape (I’m not sure what you’d call it), and blood (this was the biggest concern in my opinion).
I WOULD be comfortable with sharing this with others, but it was never meant for younger audiences so I wouldn’t really show my siblings.
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“I did not do it. That’s the truth, I’m telling you! Please, you have to believe me!” says the pleading man, but his assailant does not heed the man’s begging. Instead, the attacker brings his club down on the man’s head again. The man falls to the floor unconscious, blood pools around his mouth. This brings screams from the man’s watching family. They are all tied to chairs, forced to watch this intruder assault the man.
“Please, stop! I can tell you anything he can’t, just please stop!!!” pleads the man’s wife. The attacker turns from the fallen man to the wife along with her two children. He speaks, “I’m afraid that you don’t know I anything I need, darling.” He takes a step forward. “But I think that you might have something I want. Maybe your daughter too.” After finishing his sentence, he lets out a menacing laugh.
The fallen man’s wife speaks again, “Leave her alone, you monster!”, but her resolve seems to die within her once she sees her husband’s motionless form on the ground, “but you can do whatever you want with me…” For a moment, the assailant almost seemed like he would take her up on her offer, but he replies, “Not just yet, darling. I’m not done with your man.”
“No!!!” says the mother along with her children, but the attacker pays no attention to them. At this point, the man on the floor is completely unconscious, but as the assailant drags him up by his hair, his eyes flutter weakly. “I’m going to ask you again,” says the attacker. “Where. Is. My. Money.” The bloodied man cannot bring himself to answer, but he looks over to his sobbing family and gurgles out five words, “I.. love.. You,” he coughs out blood in between, “I’m… sorry…” Having said this, the man collapses for the last time.
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So, anyways, was that too dark? I mean, that’s not the end, and the violence in it was actually leading to something, but I didn’t have time to finish since I wanted to get an opinion on it first.
Thanks, guys! (if that excerpt was too bad to be here, feel free to delete it)
Life's a cruel joke, so you have to laugh at it sometimes.
@xonos-darkgrate I know some people who would find that too graphic, but I don’t. I think there’s a good light/dark contrast and it doesn’t make me feel empathetic toward the villain so I’d say this is good so long as it’s for a good purpose. 🙂
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@xonos-darkgrate *shudders* I don’t think it was too dark. And it’s very well-written!
A dreamer who believes in the impossible...and dragons. (INFJ-T)
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