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Are you an outliner or a pantser? How much do you plan before you write the first draft?
I used to be a very tedious outliner. Mapping out each of the plot points, then deciding on every scene in the novel, and exactly how it was going to go.
But as you may have noticed, I said used. The problem that I would run into with detailed outlines, was that the characters would never follow them. While writing in their POV they would take the story into their own hands and ver off course.
So I tried a different method. Instead of working out every detail of each scene before writing, I just set up the basic main plot points, (inciting event, mid-point, dark moment, climax, and resolution), and also the main characters’ arcs. So when I started writing, I just had the basics of how I wanted the story to go and the main characters’ internal and external transformations.
I put the rest of the story into how the main character wanted things to go, and what feels right in each moment. Since I get to know and understand the main character so well before I write the story, I just follow what they would most naturally do according to their character. It makes it a lot more exciting this way, not knowing exactly how things are going to turn out. But I don’t feel lost or get stuck, because I know the general direction the story is going to go and end up.
So I guess I’m a mix of both an outliner and a pantser. But more leaning towards the side of an outliner. What about you?
My outlining process has evolved in the reverse of yours. XD I used to be a hardcore pantser. I could not outline, it always took too long and stinted my writing, and I never liked the end result. But after way too many unfinished stories I decided to try outlining again and now I’ve realized I work a lot better with a fairly detailed outline. I do go scene-by-scene, and I try to make note of any details I’ll need to remember as I write and am liable to forget, but I also try not to tie myself to the outline too much. If a character wants to go off in another direction, I consider what impact it would have before deciding whether to stick to the outline or follow the new direction and adjust things accordingly.
It also depends, to some degree, on what type of story I’m working on. The massive, interwoven fantasy trilogy I tried writing a while back definitely needs a detailed outline (although I do think that starting with only the main plot points outlined and attempting to pants the parts in between has laid out the groundwork for outlining it effectively), but some of my smaller stories can still survive without a lengthy outline even if I now prefer the security of having one.
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
@kathleenramm I’ve got such a rigid writing schedule for myself that I don’t actually have the time or brain cells to sit down and map out every single specific thing. So I don’t really call myself a plotter.
I have a very specific ritual when starting a new work: I open the notebook, leave the first sheet blank, and then on the second page I list out the number of chapters I’m going to write, as well as from whose POV, as well as any specific plot points I want. I do plot major plot points, just never minor ones.
And then I sit down and make up the whole thing as I go along.
Sometimes this works really well. For my last trilogy, I actually came up with a coherent plot and tied everything together. I was quite proud of myself for that.
But for the book that I’m supposed to finishing in a couple of weeks, I had no idea what was going on when I started it, and I only started to get a basic idea last week. I’ve completely deviated from whatever it is that I wrote on the front page (when I was writing the outline I forgot all the important plot points, anyway) so hopefully I’ll be able to tie this together. If not, that’s okay, because I have to type it all onto the PC anyway.
So yeah, I outline, and then I make stuff up. Pretty much sums up my writing process XD
Lately, it's been on my brain
Would you mind letting me know
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At first glance, I am definitely, hands-down, no doubt about, a pantser. Especially when you’re talking about my debut novel, Held Captive, which didn’t get its plot twist until I was halfway through and suddenly seeing that I didn’t have a answer to the big, fat, glaring question.
But, I guess I’m kind of in the middle as a whole. Some stories I’ll sit and plot out everything–I seriously spent an entire two months plotting 20,000 words worth of a series that I’ll never write. What a waste of time. Other stories, I just get myself a quick summary and then write. I always outline my characters, though. I can’t not outline them, from their exact weight and height to their favorite books to their worst faults. Some characters are a little more fleshed-out than others, yes, but they’re all carefully outlined.
Recently, I’ve been–like @kathleenramm–getting the basics set up and going from there. Since I write mostly first-person and pretty much all character-driven (aside from this one mystery I’m working on, which goes against all my pantsing instincts), I can’t stick to a rigid outline, what with my characters being so rebellious and all.
Yes, having a detailed outline can give you a sense of security while writing. You don’t have to worry about having as many plot holes or getting stuck in the middle of writing.
Ooooh, your fantasy trilogy sound really interesting! What’s the premise, and how far are you into writing it? Is it going smoothly or are you pulling your hair out because of it? I’m constantly going back and forth between these two phases, so I’m curious how a massive complex and intertwined trilogy is going for you. Writing complex and interwoven stories is no piece of cake.
Your writing process sounds a lot like mine. “outline, and then make stuff up” is the perfect way to describe the writing process. Though, to me, it feels like the characters are the ones making things up rather than me. XD
It’s interesting that you plan out all the chapters before you write. How does planning out the chapters before hand help you?
Haha, Plantser would be me as well! Plotting and pantsing is definitely more of a scale than being a black and white answer.
@gracie-j
I guess if you flesh out characters really deeply and detailed, like it sounds like you and I do, they come to life and rebel against outlines! I’m glad that I’m not the only person this happens to. As much as it’s frustrating sometimes, I kinda prefer it that way. It shows that the characters are more than just puppets being controlled by an author for plot convenience.
@kathleenramm I guess planning out chapters gives me a to-do list and a word count goal. I find that it’s easier to do things with a checklist, and it makes me more motivated every time I finish a scene.
Lately, it's been on my brain
Would you mind letting me know
If hours don't turn into days[quote quote=85014]Ooooh, your fantasy trilogy sound really interesting! What’s the premise, and how far are you into writing it? Is it going smoothly or are you pulling your hair out because of it? I’m constantly going back and forth between these two phases, so I’m curious how a massive complex and intertwined trilogy is going for you. Writing complex and interwoven stories is no piece of cake.[/quote]
Oh boy… Well… The premise is that the main character of book one assassinates a neighboring kingdom’s ruler based on false information, which begins a chain of events that end up with three nations at war with each other. Each book follows a notable character in a different one of those three nations and the books occur simultaneously.
As far as progress… I started the trilogy in… either 2016 or 2017? And I got through a serious chunk of book one (about 76k) before I had to switch to focusing on book two so that I could get it caught up timeline-wise and know how to progress book one from there. Which was fine for a little while, but then the book two MC got really annoying and decided to make a mess of everything and drag her story out like crazy in all sorts of different directions, and I took a lot of long unofficial hiatuses from it in 2019 before finally deciding to just set it aside guilt-free at some point that year (with it sitting around 95k), and I haven’t really touched it since.
So… books one and two are mammoths and they haven’t even reached the halfway point, and book three is only about 16k at the moment, and book two really makes me want to tear my hair out and is the primary reason I’m trying to re-outline it… and also having a terrible time of that. XD Book one was a breeze, relatively speaking (it’s honestly my primary motivation for not just throwing the whole trilogy out, lol), and book three is… eh. I struggle to motivate my MC because she’s naturally very passive, so that one can be difficult; plus I think book three is the most loosely outlined, especially for the first chunk. And book two is my problem child. XD
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Singer. Worldbuilding enthusiast.
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@kathleenramm I’m glad to know I’m not the only one too! I definitely like it better when my characters come to life–even if they prove to be insubordinate and stubborn–because it adds another layer of depth to the story and it keeps me on my toes. Plot is important, but when writing is intended to be realistic, you can’t stick to a plot. Nothing in life sticks to a set schedule or plan, so… Plus, it’s fun to watch the characters blossom. I guess it’s the same as parenting–you have your “do this or that” books and your preconceived notions, but in the end, the child’s gonna end up with a mind of his own.
Which character of yours has veered off course the most?
I think I’m in a similar boat with you, Kathleen–I used to think I had to outline everything, and would be scared to start writing until I had every plot point perfect. Then that didn’t work, and I switched to writing without mapping out anything, but that left me with a lot of plot points that I had to later cut out. Nowadays I try to figure out the general direction (mainly the end goal of the story, which is always so elusively difficult) I’m going, and let my characters take the wheel.
For instance, my current WIP is a fantasy duology. Do I have any idea of what’s going to happen in the second book? Absolutely not. But I do know it will be interesting. 😛
“Seven seconds till the end. Time enough for you. Perhaps. But what will you do with it?”
@gracie-j
Totally agree. When you try to force characters into some plot point that you’ve outlined, it ends up feeling very forced and contrived. And now that I’ve spotted contrived plot devices in my own stories, it’s like a flashing red light when I read or watch other stories. Forcing things makes the story feel cheap, lazy, and unrealistic. Definitely something I want to avoid. XD
Oh… the character that has been the most rebellious… that would be Barrett. Now before you roll your eyes at his name, it wasn’t my choice, I am writing this story with a couple of my siblings so it would be their fault. And it can’t be changed until I’ve found a good name that fits him. But anyway, he’s the main character of a story that my siblings and I have been writing for over four years. He’s the reason why we’ve been writing this story for a quarter of my life. We have dozens if not hundreds of different versions of the story, and we end up taking the story in a whole new direction every 5 minutes. It’s made the whole writing process very long and confusing. During the four year writing of this book we got so frustrated that we took a short couple month break from writing it. And in that time, we wrote an entirely different story with Barrett as a side character who ending up dying in it. After writing that novel, it was much easier to go back to our original story which we are knee deep into writing now. Alas we have now hit another road block in the story that has made us decide we must through a wrench at to resolve. So as you can tell, we’ve had quite the ordeal with Barrett. And I could truly go on and on about our troubles with him, but I won’t. Right now I’m determined to finish this story before the five year mark. XD
How about you? Who’s was your most rebellious character?
Yeah, I find that a balance of both outlining and pantsing works best for most writers. Since there are pros and cons to both.
What’s your fantasy duology about? And what made you decide to write two novels instead of one?
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@kathleenramm Yikes. And I thought my one year of writing was a long time… *looks behind her at the I-told-you-so expression a certain character is wearing* I’m sorry, Keat. I know I said a lot of mean things to you, and your book, and I apologize. You know I’m prepared to take a million years writing you. I love you. Really, man, I do. *turns back to laptop screen*
Ahem. My most rebellious character? *guffaws* All. of. them. I literally mean every. single. one. But not really until this book. You see, I’m in the middle of a series, so I have two POVs (Rina and Xavier) who have returned and two new ones (Keaton and Daisy) that I’m working with. Everyone’s first-person, which is driving me nuts since I’m so obsessive about unique voices, and everyone is being rebellious. Except Rina, really. She’s never caused me any problems, come to think of it.
My last novel, I had a hard time with one character, Crimson. But once I got the hang of her voice (or discovered what it was, really), she became my easiest character yet.
This novel, Bound and Determined, which has been lovingly nicknamed BAD (😆), has presented problem after problem. You probably don’t want to hear about it…but I’m suddenly feeling the need to vent to someone who understands (i.e., not my three-year-old sister). First, I had no idea who or what or why or how anything that has to do with Daisy. She has a very conflicting everything. As in, she’s a slave and yet she’s also a Christian. (You get my underlying point, right?) She’s also supposed to be super “selfless,” as in wildly obsessed about her little sister rather than her own well-being. And then…ugh. It’s just outrageous. I think I’ve come to a happy medium, but I dunno. Then, Xavier started to sound more like a sappy girl than a tough guy, and his scenes themselves just wouldn’t come out right. I’ve moved on, but I’m prepared to rewrite that part three times over.
And now it’s Keaton. I was happy with him for approximately 20 chapters. Now…not so much. His voice…it’s all wrong. He is all wrong. His reactions don’t fit his thoughts and his thoughts don’t fit his background and his background doesn’t fit his current lifestyle and his current lifestyle doesn’t fit his reactions…it’s a constant cycle…bleck. It makes me nauseous just thinking about it. Maybe he’s just the “diverse and interesting” character I’d described, but right now, I pert near ’bout hate the feller.
At least he’s realistic.
Anyway…I hope you and your siblings make some headway on Barrett and his book. Do you need any other names? There’s always Aggravating and Insubordinate and Stubborn and Irritating and Rebellious and Treacherous and…well, you get the picture. 😉 What about…Wade? Colton? Burke? (I like that one.)
@gracie-j
I’m so happy to have found a friend who can relate to frustrating characters. Don’t worry, it’s fine to vent to me. I’ve gone on quite a few rants in the recent past myself, so don’t worry about me judging you. XD
Your issues with Keaton and Daisy sound all too familiar. But sometimes the characters that take the most work to write are the best. Right? At least I hope so. Barrett better be a good character by the end of all this.
Haha, “Diverse and Interesting”, maybe that’s Leon’s definition of what a diverse and interesting character is. I mean, for all we know, it could very well be. XD
Hmmm… Aggravating… That does pretty much sum up my relationship with him. XD
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Hey, girl, whenever you need to let out some steam, I’m here. I feel ya. Not that I’m particularly happy about that, since it would be more than great if all my characters would just suck it up and do what I tell them to do… Anywho, at least I’ve had four in the past who love me still, so that’s wonderful.
They had better be the best. I’ll be grey-haired and wrinkled by the time I’m done writing them! 👵 😆
Tru dat, tru dat.
I’m seriously considering renaming Keaton. Maddening and Irritating are my first choices. 😆 I hope Aggravating–ahem, Barrett works out for y’all, and soon!
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