Sword fighting

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  • #4216
    Sarah Hoven
    @sarah-h
      • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
      • Total Posts: 669

      Does anyone here know the ins and outs of sword fighting?
      I have a sword fight scene in my story, in which the opponents are pretty evenly matched. However, I don’t really know anything about sword fighting, so I don’t know how to realistically write the scene.

      #4222
      Kate Flournoy
      @kate-flournoy
        • Rank: Chosen One
        • Total Posts: 3976

        I certainly cannot claim to know the ins and outs of sword fighting, but I have found it helpful to look up instructional videos—though I haven’t got around to watching any of them yet :P—and illustrated ‘lectures’ or articles on technique. One thing to keep in mind, though, as you do this, is what kind of sword fighting are your characters doing? Is it fencing, with foils and lots of fancy technical stuff, or is it broadsword fighting? Strength counts a lot more in broadsword fighting than skill, and it’s the other way around with fencing, though both require great amounts of each. Fencing is a gentleman’s sport (though it can certainly be deadly) and broadsword fighting is for battle. In my opinion, of course. There may be those who would disagree. 🙂

        Sarah Hoven
        @sarah-h
          • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
          • Total Posts: 669

          Thanks, Kate. In my story, one opponent is a common soldier, while the other is a trained knight. I guess they would be broadsword fighting, then.

          #4282
          Daeus
          @daeus
            • Rank: Chosen One
            • Total Posts: 4238

            Hi Sarah,

            That would be me. Feel free to ask me any questions on the subject. I actually submitted an article a couple weeks ago for KP on writing realistic sword fights. It hasn’t been published, but keep a watch out in case it ever is. Before you settle on your warriors fighting with broad swords, check what era your in. Broad swords (along with nights) began to decline in the 1500s. Around this time, swords designed solely to thrust (and thrust well) began to be designed. These were known as rapiers. Latter, a smaller version known as the small sword was developed. Rapiers were used mainly in duels, for self defense, and in small fights. Small swords had the same purpose but were more common to just carry around with you anywhere. During the 1600s, knights were practically abandoned. As the focus drifted away from knights to modern armies, swords which were good for hacking or stabbing, but not ideal for either, became the main sword used in battles. Of course, if your fight is taking place in a fantasy world you can break the rules a little.

            Just to clear things up a little, strength is not much more important in broad sword fighting than it is in fencing. As long as you have enough strength to wield your sword quickly, you are basically fine whether you wield a hacking or a thrusting sword. A knight in battle however, does have a great advantage if he possesses uncommon strength. This is not because he will be able to fight better at the beginning of the battle, but because he will be able to fight better at the end. If I were to spend a whole hour fighting with armor on that weighed as much as me, swinging my sword constantly, running to and fro in the hot sun, and suffering faintness from loss of blood, I would probably die from exhaustion. Knights however had to endure such fighting all day. Hence the need for amazing strength.

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            #4283
            Rolena Hatfield
            @rolena-hatfield
              • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
              • Total Posts: 405

              Hi Sarah!

              I’m not an expert when it comes to sword fighting either! But here’s a couple things I found helpful for those fight scenes.
              The reason I find sword fighting so difficult to write about, is because it in itself is merely two men executing attacks and defenses with their weapons. (And I don’t know any technical terms for how they maneuver their weapons) No matter how exciting and magnificent it can be to watch on t.v. it’s just hard to get that same thrill written out on paper!
              So instead of the focus of the scene actually being on the terms used for their swords clashing together, try putting the focus on the main character’s emotion during the fight.
              Ask yourself what the reason is that these two men are fighting.
              If you’re telling it from the common solider’s point of view… is he fighting because he’s jealous of the knight? He could show that by stepping forward and challenging the knight to a duel. It could be shown through how harshly or wildly he swings his sword.
              Or is the common soldier terrified of the knight, but steps up to protect his family from the unjust knight. Show the soldier gaining confidence in the fight as he remembers it’s for his family’s safety that he fights.
              Or perhaps it told from the knight’s perspective. What does he think about this common soldier?
              From whomever’s perspective it is told, fist ask yourself why the sword fight is taking place and then use the emotion of why their fighting to fuel the scene.
              This way even if you don’t know the technical terms for a sword fight, your scene has its place in your story. (My sword fights include a lot of clashes and clangs 🙂 )
              You’re telling the main character’s story, so your readers aren’t going to be disappointed if you put the focus of the scene on the character’s emotions and don’t give them this technically correct battle scene. They want to hear about your character more than the best term for blocking a blow.
              For the reality of it though, I will say that I do know sword fights are extremely dangerous, and excruciatingly difficult. Both the knight and the common soldier are at risk of being severely injured or even killed. It’s helpful to remember the physical aspects of a fight, such as how sweaty they’ll get, how tiered they may become (the longer they fight, the more weary they’ll become) the vibration you’ll feel on your arms when the swords clash together. Some of these aspects can be told to illustrate how the battle is going.
              Hope that’s helpful!

              https://rolenahatfield.com/

              #4286
              Sarah Hoven
              @sarah-h
                • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
                • Total Posts: 669

                Thank you, Daeus and Rolena.
                Daeus, my story takes place in the year 1311, and the fight is between two Englishmen; the soldier is older, taller, and stronger, but the knight has more training. At first, I had the soldier conquer the knight almost immediately, but I don’t think that is realistic. So I decided to make the fight longer; and that’s when I realized that I know next to nothing about sword fights. Do you have any suggestions?

                Rolena, THANK YOU for suggesting that I focus on the characters’ emotions during the scene. I didn’t even think about that.

                #4288
                Daeus
                @daeus
                  • Rank: Chosen One
                  • Total Posts: 4238

                  Hmm, well yes, I have more suggestions than I have time to write down, but I’ll start with some basics.

                  First of all, how much training does the soldier have? If he has just picked up a sword recently then that is a rather interesting situation. Beginners have no idea what they are doing and tend to be wild, aggressive, and unpredictable. This can confuse even professionals and so put them at a disadvantage. If however the professional retains his wits and acts carefully and decisively, the novice doesn’t stand a fraction of a chance. If you don’t have much knowledge on sword fighting, you might have your soldier be a novice because novices may do almost anything and you can hardly portray their tactics incorrectly. If however you wan’t your soldier to be experienced, you will have a harder time writing an accurate fight scene. The flip side of this is that, if you succeed, your fight scene will sound more interesting.

                  During the 1300s broadswords were in their prime. Strikes were almost always delivered with the edge rather than the point. Swordsmen would assume a stance with one leg in front in a firm position almost as if they were stepping forward to deliver a speech. Advancements or retreats were generally made by swinging the back leg to the front or vice versa. Blows could be sent at any part of the body but, contrary to what you might think, the legs were actually a prime target since they were often easier to hit than other areas but would still disable an opponent. The basic rule to block against any sword attack is to follow your opponent’s blade. Hence if he is striking to my left, I will move my blade to the left and knock his out of the way before it hits me. Also, If he strikes to my left and I follow with my blade, but then he drops his blade under mine and attacks my right, my response would be to follow his blade over to the right side and then knock it out of the way either to the right or left depending on what type of block I am using. There are many different guards, defensive moves, and offensive moves which deserve their own special attention in broad sword fighting, but I can’t go into detail on these now. If you would like to study such details, I would suggest consulting a manual. I would suggest Medieval Swordsmanship by John Clements. Generally, when you are defending against an attack, you will take a step back. When you are attacking, you will take a step forward. Two vocabulary words you may want to know are parry and faint. Parry means block. Faint means pretend to attack one part of your opponents body and then switch to another all in the same fluid motion.

                  Hope this helps. Don’t worry about asking too many questions.

                  🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢

                  #4289
                  Rolena Hatfield
                  @rolena-hatfield
                    • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
                    • Total Posts: 405

                    Daeus,

                    I’m so glad someone has some expertise on the subject! Might I ask some questions as well?
                    Would you know… what are the possibilities of a dagger going up against a broad sword and coming out victorious? (we’ll assume that the two opponents are of equal strength and skill) Are there any other downsides to that senerio beside the fact that a dagger is a much smaller weapon?

                    Also, is it true that if a blacksmith didn’t make a sword to precise measures that the sword would shatter when struck against something hard?

                    Thanks for all the info! (I believe it will be very useful in bringing reality to any future written sword fights of mine)

                    https://rolenahatfield.com/

                    #4299
                    Daeus
                    @daeus
                      • Rank: Chosen One
                      • Total Posts: 4238

                      Hi Rolena,

                      I have never heard that if a blacksmith doesn’t make a sword to precise measurements that it will break, but I doubt it. Swords were made in all different sizes. Perhaps if the smith made the blade excessively thin or long, it might break, but I am sure there are a wide range of sturdy designs.

                      As to a dagger vs. sword fight, it would depend on the skill of the fighters. Not the skill of one to the other (since you assume it to be equal) but the skill of both on a scale of terrible to unbeatable. If they are both novices, the fact that one has a longer blade would no doubt decide the battle. I would place the dagger wielder’s odds at about 1 to 6. If they are experts, the dagger wielder would have odds more like 1 to 2. The tactics a dagger wielder would need to follow are simple. He would need to stay out of the sword wielders reach as much as possible, while still staying close enough to tempt his opponent to strike. As he jumps from side to side avoiding the blows, he must watch his opponents every move. You normally do this, but he would have to pay especial attention. He must observe each habit or flaw and watch for any openings. He could block his opponents blade with his dagger, but this would be hard as the speed and power of the sword blow might be able to plow right through the defensive maneuver. His only hope is in closing in. He could throw his dagger, but that would probably not cause a fatal wound and then he would be unarmed. His chance to close in will probably come in one of two ways. One, he could rush in when his opponent has just attempted an unsuccessful blow at him and is just about to retire. Two, he could use his dagger (or hand actually) to push his opponents blade out of the way as he rushes in. He may have to resort to using his hand to grab his opponents blade, for even though it will cut him, it may save his life. If he has the opportunity, a safer method with similar results would be to grab his opponents wrist. As a side note, it is almost never a good idea to hold a dagger with the pommel at the top of your fist and the blade at the bottom. 99% of the time it is best to hold it like you would a sword with the blade being on the top of your fist and the pommel below.

                      🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢🐢

                      #4300
                      Sarah Hoven
                      @sarah-h
                        • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
                        • Total Posts: 669

                        Thank you so much, Daeus! The soldier has been fighting for at least 16 years, and is very experienced, while the knight is in his early twenties. I probably should have included those details in my first post; sorry about that! Your explanation of the different moves was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

                        #4305
                        Kate Flournoy
                        @kate-flournoy
                          • Rank: Chosen One
                          • Total Posts: 3976

                          Oh boy, I knew as soon as Daeus saw this post he would be off! I was just waiting for it! So glad we have an expert here to tell us what we don’t know.
                          Now I have a question.
                          Isn’t the footwork employed in fighting with a dagger pretty similar to the footwork employed in fighting with a sword? (A broadsword). I have a fantasy hero who is practically an expert with a knife, but had never handled a sword in his life. Assuming my above assumption is correct, shouldn’t this character be able to pick up sword fighting technique much better and quicker than someone who had never studied either sword or dagger? Please don’t be soft— if this is not the case, tell me without hesitation. You know I could use some help in this area… 🙂
                          And just out of curiosity, I have been searching around for different instructional videos just to get the general feel for broadsword technique, and it seems to me that broadsword fighting does not require nearly as much footwork (or at least, nearly as much highly complicated footwork) as fencing. Is this just me?

                          Daeus
                          @daeus
                            • Rank: Chosen One
                            • Total Posts: 4238

                            Hi Kate,

                            I don’t really have much experience with dagger/knife fighting, but I can offer some limited help in that area. A dagger could be used equally for stabbing or slashing. If you are stabbing, you will borrow more form fencing and if you are slashing you will borrow more from broadsword fighting. Of course you will probably be using both, back and forth, so what you will end up with would be a hybrid. I believe the stance for dagger fighting is most similar to fencing. A dagger is less safe than a sword since it is harder to cover all your body from attack. Consequently, you can’t take large swings with it like a sword. Most hacking would be done from the elbow. As far as footwork goes, I believe it is most similar to fencing. Do not get confused by the word fencing though. There is modern fencing and there is traditional fencing. Modern fencing is a sport. It is very similar to traditional fencing and any fencer would do well given a rapier, but it is not the same as traditional fencing. Traditional fencing had a slightly different stance and lunge. It was also common for swordsmen to simply rush in and out rather than lunge. In modern fencing you always fight in a line. In traditional fencing, you could run around in circles all you wanted. When I say that dagger footwork is similar to fencing footwork, I am talking about traditional fencing, which was more like broadsword footwork than modern fencing, though it was still very distinctive.

                            Your assumption about knife skills transferring to sword skills is correct.

                            As to broadsword footwork, while I have less experience with it than with fencing foot work, I would say that, while fencing footwork is certainly more unusual than broadsword footwork, it is not significantly more complicated.

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                            #4360
                            Mark Kamibaya
                            @mark-kamibaya
                              • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
                              • Total Posts: 318

                              Hey Sarah,

                              In every fight scene you have to show character. If you don’t you’ve failed. Use the five senses. Use short sentences. You should not describe everything. Don’t assault the reader with hard-to-understand fighting terms If the reader doesn’t understand. You’ve failed.

                              I blog on story and spiritual things at mkami.weebly.com

                              #4373
                              Sarah Hoven
                              @sarah-h
                                • Rank: Knight in Shining Armor
                                • Total Posts: 669

                                Yes, my fight scene definitely fails. I will improve it. Thanks for suggesting that I use short sentences; I can see how that would add to the tension, suspense, etc. that I am trying to create.

                                #4375
                                Kate Flournoy
                                @kate-flournoy
                                  • Rank: Chosen One
                                  • Total Posts: 3976

                                  Well Mark, I would disagree. Not that you have to have a character— obviously, there’s no other reason to write a fight scene than if it is affecting one of your characters— but that you should not describe everything, and that you should use short sentences. Now it sounds like I’m nitpicking, but I have very legitimate reasons for presenting these arguments. At least, I think I do. 🙂
                                  I think you have to slow down a lot and describe every move carefully and with precision if you want to make a fight scene believable and realistic. Don’t try to move at the same pace as the combatants, or you will come out with a jumbled tangle of words that will sound rushed, stilted, and too general to be understood. Half of writing is conveying an image— no one likes to look at a blurry, ill-defined painting. Obviously, don’t go into too much detail— ‘he moved his foot forward, the heavy iron of his greaves weighting him down. His foot was in the air— it neared the tip of the nearest tussock of curly marsh grass— it touched the first shriveled blades— it slid down amongst them, almost reaching the bloodstained, trampled muck— it came to rest at last, and he rocked forward on his shins, causing his boot to sink deeper and deeper into the mire.” WAY TOO MUCH DETAIL. If you describe every single movement with that much detail, one fight scene will dominate five or six chapters. But do describe the important moves carefully and precisely. Don’t describe the gore, though— mention the blood, but don’t, please don’t, mention it squirting everywhere or pooling around the severed limbs lying on the battlefield or anything like that. Obviously war will have those, but you don’t have to be disgusting in your descriptions.
                                  I guess my argument is not against short sentences, but against using them blindly. ‘He stabbed, then retreated. He ducked, then lunged forward and stabbed again. Blood trickled into his eyes, making it difficult for him to see. Stumbling backwards, he tripped over a broken shield. He fell to the ground, and flung up his arm to defend himself. His enemy’s sword came flashing down in a glittering arch.’
                                  That’s a very choppy fight— and maybe that’s what the writer was aiming for. Maybe it’s a teeth gritting, sheer determination, brute strength fight. But not all fights should be like that. Sometimes it is better to employ a smooth, graceful, twisting, dancing style of sentence, if that is the way the combatants are moving. ‘He lunged forward, his body taut and hard with the tension of the moment, his eyes shining bright and determined beneath the shattered visor of his helmet. Their two blades met with an ear-jarring clang, and for a moment they struggled against each other in grim silence, each striving to sweep the other’s blade aside and close for a fatal thrust. Only iron strength could support the strain for long. He [our main character, who doesn’t have a name, poor fellow] felt his arm beginning to give way, and with a sudden shout and one last burst of determination twisted the tip of his sword over the sword of his enemy, throwing it aside and up and turning on his heel with one fluid motion to avoid the deadly blade as it whistled over his head in a flashing arch.’
                                  Does that make sense?
                                  Another thing I like to do is utilize my surroundings— are my characters fighting in a warehouse? Have them use bales of wool or casks of wine for weapons, shields, or traps. (Seriously, would you like to get hit in the head with a keg of molasses?)
                                  Are they fighting in a kitchen? Have them throw kitchen utensils at each other; have the brick bread oven pose a very serious threat for whoever got pushed into it; have the barrels of flour get overturned and spilled into your character’s eyes. This not only spices up the scene, it makes it so you don’t have to rely so heavily on the technical fighting terms or just the same moves over and over. Hope this was helpful, because it certainly is long. 🙂

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