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Proposition: It would be fine for a good guy to use torture on a bad guy who was breaking laws of combat/morality to find out information to stop such breaking of laws. Let me explain. In battle, generals on both sides might interrogate prisoners to discover what the enemy is doing. But in simple combat, I don’t think it would be right for a good guy to physically torture his enemy just to get information about the opposing army. It’s the other’s duty to keep that information secret after all. This would be the same if you captured a man who knew where his leader was hiding but wouldn’t speak, or things like that (even if the enemy are invaders).
However, in a particular case where the enemy is exceeding bounds of ‘righteous warfare’ (there’s a conversation all of its own) and is murdering and perhaps event torturing noncombatants just for pleasure, then if he or one of the men who help him are captured, torture might be permissible to get information to stop another village from being massacred.
So, the Good Guy would not torture a person who refuses to reveal the location of honestly captured prisoners, but might torture one who was wouldn’t reveal the location where noncombatants are being held in horrible conditions awaiting execution.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
That makes sense. I agree. I can’t find any flaws in the logic… that may just be me though.
@Ezra-Wilkinson? Logic Master? We need you.Flaw in the logic? No, not as much.
If there were a flaw however, it would be this: Once again, things come down to the individual. I’ll actually quote Studio C here, (or as best as I can remember the quote): “By that logic you can justify any action simply by placing another person on the enemy side.”
You see, I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been subconsciously prodding myself towards a hobby horse of mine. Namely: Using people as the source for moral absolutes.
The Bible is pretty silent on this subject. The only parameters it sets out that /I/ can think of, are the ones about treating your neighbor as yourself, etc…
Really, I think that’s all I’d be willing to put down absolutely on this issue. Any argument can be made for either side, because we’re using ourselves to define what makes what. This is justifiable here, because I say so, which is different from this. Who decides which is which?
It’s a cop out, I know, but I’m just saying, I personally won’t be hazarding to say if this is something we can be solid about one way or the other.
Yes, it’s very grey in some areas isn’t it?
That’s a good quote, by the way.In regards to the ‘treating your neighbor as yourself’, what if your neighbor is a criminal? Obviously you should turn him in— obviously you should see that he comes to justice, even if that’s not what you would want someone else to do to you. How does that qualify as treating your neighbor as yourself? Does it lie in that you are protecting other people from the criminal you turned in?
Just something to chew on.
Resolved: It is wrong to torture somebody just because you want information.
Resolved: The end does not justify the means – ever.
Resolved: Personal convictions (i.e. That one side of a war is in the right) is not a crime. Only immoral action is a crime.
Resolved: Not doing can be as bad as doing.
Conclusion: The only time it might (and I mean might) be ok to torture is when somebody is committing a terrible wrong (like the terrorist example) by not giving information. Even if the person has committed serious crimes, he should not be tortured for that, he should receive separate punishment. Torture involves the promise that if the truth is revealed the torture will stop. However if the person deserves death then the promise that he will not be hurt when he delivers the truth is a lie. Thus, as I said, there is only one possible place for torture. This leaves us with only one question. Is torture the right way to go. Forget about all the lives at rise (the end does not justify the means). Just consider is that the proper response for the crime. What do you thin? I’m not entirely sure.
Resolved: I need to read the bible more.
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It’s not “treat your neighbor as yourself”. It’s “love you neighbor as yourself”
Love is tough.
Perfect love requires holiness.
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Despite tentatively agreeing with my own proposition above, that doesn’t mean I think it’s the final answer. Or that I’d support or use torture. But that’s the only case where I might let a good character use it.
I do agree that the ends do not justify the mean, however, which brings us back to the original question…would inflicting pain in such a case be a sin.
(not, of course, that that would be the first option. There’s always bribes and plenty of mental manipulation you could work with.)
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Amen!
Everybody.There are a lot of ideas on this topic, some of which may or may not be correct. I’m glad that we can all work together, even with our minorly opposing viewpoints, and try to find a solution for all this. It’s so refreshing that even though a lot of us disagree, we can still carry on a polite conversation.
And I agree that the end does not justify the means.
And so we are left with the original question. Oh boy. Here we go again. Is this one of those things where there is no definite line to draw? I hate those scenarios, but is this one of them?
You never know until you research it thoroughly. Are you prepared to do that?
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Really great discussion ya’ll!
One thing I was thinking on as I read through this topic is that we shouldn’t forget the “big picture”. By that I mean, say you’re writing a book that you’re considering if you’d like to add a torture scene. We could stop at that scene and discuss for hours whether it would be right or wrong for the characters to use torture as a means to get the info they want. But my question would be, how would you show the effects of that scene through the rest of the book?
A thing like a tortuing scene should create a big effect for your theme.Is the torturing scene showing how evil your villain is? Or what about the “good guy” using torture scenerio. Does the “good guy” walk away remorseful about using such measures and is determined to never allow such means to be used under his power again? How would he be reacting in the toture room? Maybe his companions try to convince him that it’s okay to use torture in war, but he’s fidgeting and turns his gaze from watching the objective being tortured.
Ask how the scene would be used in your story. Does it fit within the “big picture” to show the villian’s evilness or afford the “good guy” a lesson?Oh and I apologize, but my spell check is off right now, so hopefully nothing is spelled wrong. I’m pretty dependant on my spell check! 🙂
Have any of you written a scene where the charaters use interrogation to get their desired info? (Is that what ya’ll were talking about when you mentioned, mental munipulation?)
https://rolenahatfield.com/
Hmm, that’s a good point. And no, I don’t have any interrogation scenes; well, I have one where a bad guy is running the interrogation, but the scene doesn’t go into details.
As to mental manipulation I’m thinking along the lines of keeping a prisoner on bread and water with the promise of food and riches if they give information (though that’s not really mental) or playing annoying music to wear them down or subjecting the prisoners to something they don’t like, like a room with snakes or spiders…basically, a situation that might be unpleasant but isn’t harmful.
INTJ - Inhumane. No-feelings. Terrible. Judgment and doom on everyone.
Snakes and spiders! Yikes… I know one person that would be harmed by that! Permanently. Me. 😉
But in all seriousness, you have good points, Rolena. I agree. I have no scenes where the ‘good guys’ are torturing anybody… well, one kinda good guy that you don’t really like until later and who definitely still has some problems.
But you’re right. Every scene needs to affect the big picture of your story, including torture scenes. I couldn’t agree more.And… I think I had something else to say, but now I can’t remember it. So much for that.
Hey y’all, I just picked up a little booklet on torture (from a biblical perspective) here at the freedom conference. Just barely got a look at it but I think it will help us. Will post more when I read it.
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