Magic System Idea and Time Loops

[valtmy]

Hey guys. I am looking for help from anyone who knows anything about writing magical systems and time loops.

I have an idea for a story that will use an elemental magic system that I have created but I am encountering problems with even making basic decisions regarding the plot and characters because of some details that I have yet to work out.

My magic system will be dependent on time and place. Magical energy will be present only in certain locations (which means anyone and their grandmother will be a mage so long as they are on the right chunk of land) and the type of magic available will depend on the time of day (so a character may be a fire mage at noon but a water mage at midnight).

The general idea I have for my plot is to take advantage of the politics and ‘cycle’ inherent in this system and write about characters who are on opposite sides of a battlefield (fighting over magical resources maybe) but are trapped together within a time loop.

But from here on out there are some decisions that I have trouble making:

#1: Should I give the characters the same or different types of elemental magic depending on the time of day? It will be easier to say, “Everyone will have fire magic at noon,” but this will sacrifice the chance to showcase the interactions between the different elements. Fights might also get boring and stale quickly. But if, say, one character is a fire mage but the other is a water mage at noon, I understand it will get confusing for readers to keep track of who controls what element and I will have to come up with a good justification for why things are different for the two characters.

#2: How can time loops be started and escaped from? I am having trouble connecting time magic to elemental magic so the time loop seems to be coming out of nowhere. Just saying that Destiny or the mysterious God figure in the universe started it seems pretty unsatisfactory. And it doesn’t really provide any tangible solution for the trapped characters to go after.

#3: How long do you think a good time loop should span? I am thinking of a single day so that the whole loop can fit nicely as one ‘cycle’ but I don’t think much can be accomplished within such a short time. A month would be too long. A week maybe?

#4: The thing about time loops is that characters are free from the consequences of their actions as they can just repeat and redo everything. How can the costs and weight of important moral decisions be highlighted if this is the case?

Will be grateful for any advice. Thanks! 🙂

[Daeus]

@valtmy Wow! This sounds cool enough to give me a headache. lol

I doubt I can answer all your questions, but maybe I can help you with a few. Here goes.

#1 I agree that different people should have different powers at the same time of day. If you do this, there should probably be a governing rule. For instance, males and females are divided as well as those above twenty and below.

#2 This is the hardest one. Maybe you could come up with something vaguely scientific. This isn’t a very detailed idea, but maybe controlling elements has a cost. If you create something, you take something away. Maybe whatever is taken away causes a time loop. I don’t know.., 😛 Also, one idea. Can characters leave the time loop if they get off the magical piece of land?

#3 A day sounds great.

#4 I think there are a couple ways this could work. First of all, I think the monotony of a time loop would start to wear down on those with selfish lifestyles. If their actions aren’t really fulfilling, then eventually there won’t be enough “new” to entertain them. Also, characters who have been hurt by others might get back at them in the next time loop. It would be vicious, but it would still be a tragic sort of justice.

 

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[introvert_girl]

@valtmy

1. I’m going to differ with @Daeus and say I think it’s a cool twist if everyone must use the same element. I think you could come up with other things to differentiate the characters from one another. Maybe fighting styles are a big deal, or people are divided by who trained them to use the magic properly.

2. Do the characters trapped in the time loop know why they’re trapped? I like the idea of it being to fulfill some type of cost of the magic system. But it could be because of something the characters specifically chose to do (and not just an accident). That way, even if you do explain it by destiny or a God figure, the characters would still be responsible in some respect.

3. I think a day sounds like a nice slice of time. Especially because it seems to fit nicely with the magic system.

4. If the characters retain the memories of each day, then I’d say emotional cost is what you want to shoot for. In a scenario like that, I can see relationships being strained. I also really like what Daeus said about characters getting back at each other for the actions done in previous loops. It could be an interesting way to explore how unsatisfying revenge is.

Also, I’m a huge fan of what you have so far. It sounds really cool, and I can just smell the potential, haha.

And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

[PrincessFoo]

@valtmy I love magic systems! I don’t know if this would be helpful to you at this point, but I published an article on creating a magic system a while back on Kingdom Pen.

#1. I think it would be better for everyone to have a different elemental type, but I can see your problem of coming up of reasons why. Maybe, to mix it up a bit, everyone might get water powers at midnight, but the type of  water powers are different for every person (maybe depending on where they were standing or something.) So one person might have the ability to swim really well and breath under water. Another has the ability to make water levitate, and another can freeze water into ice.

#2. Maybe it’s a side effect of the magical resource they are fighting over.

#3. A day sounds good, but if you want it longer, maybe two or three days.

#4. If everyone remembers everything within the time loop, then the emotional cost of their actions still stand. Being selfish at some point, even if it doesn’t have lasting physical consequences, will be remembered by the others. I would think that this might even be a point of friction between characters, as one of them feels there should be consequences for the selfish actions of the other, but there aren’t.

[Rochellaine]

@valtmy I think time loops are really cool, though they do kind of give me a headache. 🙂  I don’t really have anything to add, but I’m wondering where you got the idea?

There’s a hilarious episode of Stargate SG-1 that deals with time loops and their quirks called Window of Opportunity.  If you’re writing about time loops you might enjoy it, and maybe could draw some ideas from it.

"Sylvester - Sylvester!"

[MNValentine]

@valtmy This is a brilliant idea!!! I love what you have so far.

#1 @daeus stole the very words out of my mouth…or post. You can totally use age or gender differences to determine who has what power. Of course, it could also be interesting to go by family line.

#2 The time loop is the hardest thing. However, it actually does line up with your magic, not by the elemental side, but because magical powers are different at different times of day. A few thoughts on how to play on this – You could make time act essentially as another element, with people who can control it being rare. You could connect the time loop to the piece of land and make it so being trapped in the time loop is the cost of being on magical land and using magical powers.

#3 A day is good for a time loop, however it is how long fictional time loops usually are. It could be more interesting to use a longer loop of a month or week, or even a year. I think that is totally up to you.

#4 Daeus has this one again 🙂

One thing I don’t know if you’ve considered – do people who died one cycle come back to life for the next?

Overall, I love this idea a lot! Keep at it 🙂

Silence! Silence everyone, for the king's speech!

[valtmy]

@daeus

@introvert_girl

@princessfoo

@rochellaine

@mnvalentine

Thanks for your suggestions! You guys have given me much to think about. It will take some time for me to process everything so perhaps I should go into detail about the different issues I am encountering. This may help me think this through more clearly and come to a decision.

For now, I will consider problem #1 because this is a glaring hole in my worldbuilding that needs to be addressed before I can continue with the other things.

My goal in this story is to write a magic system that gives equal respect to each element and character (no special treatment unless there are very, very good reasons stemming from the lore and history of the world). The idea that characters can only use specific elements at different times of the day comes from Eastern thought where each hour of the day corresponds to different elements.

Now in my story, the God figure in the setting created the universe by weaving all the elements together. When characters step onto the magical land, they become so-called ‘little gods’ that have access to the full range of powers associated with one specific element at a time. Thus they will have the complete power to ‘weave’ that particular element but how well they can actually do it is another matter entirely. Elemental manipulation comes from doing specific breathing techniques and body movements so characters can be rendered helpless by restraining or choking them etc.

So in my story my characters will be amazingly powerful and utterly powerless at the same time. They will be able to do all sorts of cool stuff like causing tsunamis, firestorms and earthquakes but everything is for naught unless God allows them to have an impact (i.e. let them leave the time loop).

Now, regarding my dilemma of whether characters should control the same or different elements at the same time…

Giving them all the same element:

• Would stay true to the Eastern concept about the relationship between time and elements
• Would make it less confusing for readers who only need to keep track of one element at a time
• Would limit opportunities to display the interactions between elements (I can at most give this job to one particular character who is slated to become an outlier in the system for very, very good reasons born from the lore)

Giving them all different elements:

• Would grant variation in fights and make them more interesting
• Would easily become super confusing for readers and for me as well when I write especially since this is a time loop story where details count (it might be easy to remember that Main Character A is water when Main Character B is fire but what about Nameless Mook Number 64?)
• Would violate the “equal respect” discipline I am trying to put in my story

Let me explain a little regarding my last point. I know @daeus and @mnvalentine have suggested using age, gender or genetic differences to justify different elemental powers but I am iffy about that because I am trying to go for a “We are equals under God” feel for my magic so I want my magic system to be blind to these things. Any ‘differentiation’ my elemental magic system makes must therefore be linked to the other part of its nature: time.

So perhaps the exact hour each character was born or was first exposed to magical energy would determine how his personal magic cycle runs (what specific element he gets at each time of day).

This, however, leads me to a second problem: since the elements exist in a cycle and must be treated as equals, I cannot find a consistent way to decide how each character’s personal magic cycle should run as I cannot choose any one element characters ‘start’ off with.

I know I have written a very long post so all this is very difficult to take in. But this is a question that has caused me to be stuck for a long while. Please let me know if you guys and @anyone-else have any suggestions and thoughts about how I should resolve this!

Thanks!

[introvert_girl]

@valtmy If you want to have characters on individual cycles, my advice is to look at your main characters first, most specifically the characters that will be fighting each other throughout the story, so you can design their cycles to complement and contrast each other.
Perhaps their first element is related to when they first stepped on special land. You could have each location on its own cycle (and then they would adopt that cycle when they first step onto it) or each location is associated with a dominant element. Like if it is an island in the middle of the ocean, it’s dominant element is water?

And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

[Author]

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